In today’s catch up, the indomitable Gary Vaynerchuk talks with Eric about NFTs, and how harnessing their power can make your marketing function into a profit center. Gary sheds some really interesting light on what many consider a pretty opaque or irrelevant subject, and the whole interview is really worth a listen (or two) to make sure you and your business aren’t falling behind. Learn more about Gary’s latest venture, VeeFriends, and how Gary thinks of his legacy.
Transcript
Gary: I'm a doodler. But my true art is entrepreneurship. Vee friends is doing that for me, Eric, I now have ingredients to cook in perpetuity that are mine.
Eric: I'm Eric Fulwiler. And this is scratch, bringing you marketing lessons from leading brands and brains rewriting the rulebook from scratch for the world of today.
Wow, loved this episode with Gary, of course, many of you already know Gary, Chairman of Vayner, X, CEO of VaynerMedia, creator of Vee friends, which is what we're going to focus on talking about today, I've known him for over a decade and worked for him twice versus an early employee of VaynerMedia, kind of first 15 type of thing. And then, you know, obviously, the hyper growth from there to the 1500 people or whatever it is today. And then eventually, as executive director of VaynerMedia, based out of London here, and for me, which is what brought me to this side of the pond. So Gary's had a huge impact on me who I am as a professional, but also who I am, as a human, we touched a little bit about on his next book, and his focus on leadership and empathy, and some of those quote unquote, softer skills that he thinks are so important that I think are so important that he really wants to be the legacy that he leaves and the impact he has on the business world, when it comes to Vee friends, is fascinating to hear, kind of how he thought about it in the early days, and the concept that he had and the vision that he still does have for it. So you'll get to hear that you'll get to hear how he plans on bringing them to life, how he's thinking about building brands, and how other businesses should be thinking about building brands in the NFT space. And we round it off with some very practical tactical advice of a few things that every marketer should be doing over the next 30 days to really wrap their heads around what's going on in this NFT space and the opportunity for marketing effectively there. Hope you enjoy this episode. Gary, how are you man, it's been a while
Gary: It has, it's great to see you, my friend
Eric: You have you have so much going on in your world. That's amazing. You know, obviously, I watch from being on the field if you were, if you will, at VaynerMedia and in your world for so long. But it's been amazing watching from the sidelines these last couple of years, really appreciate you making the time of being here.
Gary: Happy to do.
Eric: So as you know, for this show for Scratch, we're trying to focus in on specific case studies and initiatives from leading marketers around the world, on how they're actually building brands with modern marketing. So for today, we're focused on Vee friends. So I guess the place to start in the place I like to start with all my guests is I typically ask what's the business problem you were looking to solve? But obviously, that's a little bit different with Vee friends. So I guess the way that I would frame it up to you is what's the opportunity that you saw? And I will say actually, I should have said this at the beginning. If if people don't know Gary story, you can go check that out. And if you don't know kind of the basics of what is an NFT, you can also go check that out as well Seriously, just pause this recording, go spend a minute or two minutes getting the basics, but I don't want to waste the time with Gary to focus on that. So let's get straight into Vee friends. What is the opportunity that you saw? And actually, when did you start thinking about this? I'm sure you know, knowing you is probably percolating on the back burner for a while. But what made you say, hey, now's the time. What was that you saw
Gary: Well, first of all, before I answer that question, in the first minute here, even though we interacted for so many years together, I just had a really exciting observation, which is holy shit, you're really good at this. You're pretty you're pretty charismatic and articulate in this podcast form this, be careful here you might, you know, I now I'm known as a personality. I'm very proud of my business accomplishments. But they become clouded under this Gary Vee. So you better be careful here, Eric, you might be too good at this and might find yourself in the professional personal brand world. So be careful.
Eric: You know what I watched a lot of people do it pretty well for a pretty long time. So. But I appreciate it.
Gary: That was really good question of what I saw. I had a moment in January, that is a moment that I felt twice before my career, which was, oh my god, this is going to be enormous. And nobody knows about it yet. The first time was the internet itself in 95 and when I say nobody, nobody in the 7.7 billion people on Earth. Clearly 10s of 1000s hundreds of 1000s of alpha pioneers. I saw it in 95. I saw it in 2005. And now I was seeing it in very early 2021 with some stuff that was smoking and brewing in 2020 which was this NFT thing is now happening this is we're now on our way to people doing it using it knowing it and and I I took that very seriously this is going to happen. And in 95 and in 2005 when I decided the internet was happening and when I decided social media was happening thing my reaction was to do when I observe I do. So I, Eric, I didn't even own a computer when we launched wine library.com Let me say that nice and slow for you and listeners, I did not own a computer when I was 21 years old when wine library.com launched, like, that's how quickly I moved on something that I didn't fully do. Same thing in 05', back to the joke I just made. I was 30 years old when Wine Library TV started. You know, I'd already had eight years of professional career Wine Library was already a $40 million business like I was a businessman. And now I'm making content. I didn't think of myself as somebody anybody would know, outside of the business trades. And and now number three, you may even know this because you sat meetings, I doodled a little bit during meanings and withdrawal it all you know, because I couldn't, you know, it was probably like everybody making fun of me for doing that stuff, because I should be taking notes or what have you. But it's how I processed so it was had a little bit of doodling in me, but I knew NFT's were real. And I knew that I had to make a project. Now what's really cool is I'll be putting out this content soon. Two years earlier, I was working on a toy concept called workplace warriors, where I was going to make empathy elephant and patient pit panda, and pig and put it into toy form like Kid Robot, or some of the stuff you see on people's desks actually happen to VaynerMedia. I was like, I was getting all these emails, and DMs from people that were really upset at work, while I was walking by talking to somebody in one of our rows, and everybody in that row had toys on their desk, Simpsons, you know, ugly dolls, you know, Star Wars, and I was like, you know, what, I'm gonna make these characters that inspire mindset. And so I was working on that I didn't get around to fully finishing it, you know, I'm always working a lot of projects, then COVID happens, that kills it. And all of a sudden, I have an opportunity to do something in NFT land, and I reboot, these characters that have been in my mind, specifically patient Panda, and empathy elephant, and I build a whole universe. And and that's kind of how it happened. The opportunity was, I've Oh, you know, this, my most consistent narrative to the world is I'm building Vayner X. And I'm going to buy nostalgic brands and reboot them by adjustment to reality was, Oh, my God, I think NFT's are going to be this generation's morning cartoons. Where if you look at the 80s, and cartoons, he-man, yeah, Thundercats transformers, that the cup, the cartoon was used to build the intellectual property, the cartoon and the toys, I am going to use NFT's to build this intellectual property, I'm not going to reboot, Captain Crunch, I'm gonna create Vee friends.
Eric: So to jump in on that, because obviously, you know, I was there, the very early days of VaynerMedia. And as fast, it's fascinating to see how consistent division has been from you, I'm gonna build a marketing machine, and then plug it into brands that you're gonna then grow. And that's where the real value is going to be, of course, to go buy the New York Jets, which could definitely use your help still. So does this mean and this is kind of what I've been thinking, and maybe you've said this publicly, and I just haven't heard it. But if the plan was always Hey, you're gonna go buy those orphan brands from, you know, PepsiCo, Unilever, Johnson, and Johnson, whoever, and then raise the value and flip them that way with the marketing machine that is Vayner. X. is the plan now to build your own IP
Gary: Yes
Eric: Instead of buying somebody else's.
Gary: Okay. You know, I'm a big fan of and versus, or so, I feel like I'm gonna get to the level if everyone stays healthy, and I, you know, stay healthy. I think I'll get to the level where I'll do both, because it's fun. it's like fun for me to see if I can make Twix a healthier candy and see what I can do. But no question.
Eric: Yeah, this has taken priority now.
Gary: I mean, yeah. I mean, yeah, you know
Eric: That, to be honest, that was, you know, I saw the stuff that you were putting out. And, you know, like, you always say, I heard this advice a lot. It's, you know, watch what you do, not what you say. And so when I see you gravitating towards something, you know, try to go get my hands dirty a little bit to understand exactly what it is. And that was kind of the piece that really clicked for me. And I think I might have even we were texting or something like that.
Gary: Yes
Eric: And I get it now. Because it at the beginning, it was like NFTs okay, like I get it. There's an opportunity there. And I get it as a platform. But what clicked for me was when I realised that you are building IP, that just happened to be in the form of NFTs. Can I ask you one more question about the timing of it. And I want to, I think you'll get me because we know each other pretty well. But I want to make sure this doesn't come off the wrong way. Please, you've said and I agree with you, but obviously know a lot less than you do about the space. But there's a bit of a bubble right now, around the initial kind of forms that NFTs can take and it's really hot. There's so much Supply is so much money. And that that is probably going to be a bubble that bursts, but the platform will grow long term, much like the internet or mobile anything like that. Why take the risk of doing something now? Because even now I have people who reach out to me and are like, you know, I know Gary, but what is he doing with these characters? And so obviously, there's value to being there first being there early. And I'm sure that you weighed this up. And to be honest, that was the thing. To me that actually made me sure that you were so sure about this, because I knew that you wouldn't do it unless you were 100% Positive was going to work. But how was that thought process for you? If the timing of doing it now while it is kind of a bubble.
Gary: But because I because I think all Jeff Bezos sit right not to that level of, of wealth creation, but he navigated Amazon through internet bubble 2000. And I think that if there's a if and when there is a macro, NFT winter, that difference won't go out of business, because I will mortgage everything going on in my life. What and you'll love this, because you know me very well, you know, and you're saying it here now that I would have, there's no amount of money that would have entrusted me to ruin my reputation because it is my only asset. I knew when and I'm so glad you asked this question. There was a moment where I'm learning what NFT's are for real, not just kind of like crypto kitties from 2017, when I'd heard of it in December, but really in January, February, where I'm like, so wait a minute, let me get this straight. This is exactly what I said to myself. Even if people pay $20,000 for this, and the market because I don't control the market decides they're worth $300 I can announce the next day that if you connect your wallet to this website, this will happen. Once I understood that there was no scenario where I was scared. I know. Nobody else knows not my mama, not you, not AJ, that I would shut down. Gary Vee, the personal brand, and VaynerMedia Vayner X if I had to make the friends whole, because I knew that. And because I knew that I could unlike me selling a collectible wine. There's nothing I can do. Like if it didn't go up in value like I I'd be stuck. But the way that once I understood the way the blockchain worked, the way NFT's worked. And I said, Wait a minute. I can I can do anything. I can become partners in a business with all my holders, I can give unlimited access to myself, I could retire from speaking, but only give speeches to the I could be on zoom with them 12 hours a day every day for the rest of my life and there be their business mentor, all of which will have more inherent value than the drop off unlimited the fear
Eric: You control the value that they deliver
Gary: So let's perpetuity to continue to bring value to the token holder.
Eric: So let's talk about the brands themselves. So,
Gary: Yep
Eric: These characters. I'm curious to kind of get inside your head when you think about these because I would imagine that what you see when you think about these characters is now what we see on the outside because you're so far ahead. And I've thought this through so fully. So do you almost see a digital world or a metaverse? Like, are you building brands in the metaverse in your head? Or how are you thinking about the future of the world? They live?
Gary: A lot. A lot of people are very excited about the metaverse. I am too. I'm and you know this, Eric, I'm very passionate about timing. So I'm not overtly spending too much time on the metaverse yet, because I don't think it's at scale yet. I'm thinking about it the following way. I have 268 characters to develop. I think that nine to 12 of them will be animated cartoon show. I think five of them will be streetwear collaboration characters. Right? There'll be cool. They'll, I think five of them will be CPGs so nice. Let's stay on that one. I as you know, because you know John and Nate very well, because you worked with them started a direct to consumer wine brand that sold for half the seven excuse me have the eight fingers with potential nine fingers on a moon out to constellation called empathy. Had I launched it today it would the wine brand would be called empathy elephant. The people that hold the empathy elephant token would have been very happy that they held the so I think that I will start five in the next 15 years meaningful direct to consumer brands. and they will be based around the characters. And so that's gratitude gorilla Gump. So I think five will be that I think 10 will be an animated show, I think five will be cool and culture. I think 100 will be involved in a trading card game like Pokemon I think I think 5 to 15 will be children's books 5 characters will be the dominant play in a video game. So I very substantial there's
Eric: There's a tonne of different directions that they can take and plug into different potential businesses and weigh the ways that they come to let you
Gary: You're gonna you're gonna like this. You started it with what problem was I solving and then you switched it rightfully, in my opinion to opportunity and I'm gonna go back to problem I was solving that I wanted to just like the dream of buying the New York Jets is not about buying the Jets. It's about allowing me to have such a big goal that I could play my art do my might listen, I'm a doodler. But my true art is entrepreneurship.
Eric: It gives you a huge playing field. Correct?
Gary: Vee friends is doing that for me, Eric, I now have ingredients to cook in perpetuity that are mine.
Eric: Yep. So so let me go on back to kind of the question about the metaverse, so if it's a little bit too early for them, I'm thinking about the people listening. So marketers kind of of all levels of all industries, trying to give them something actionable to take away if it's too early, in your opinion to be thinking about how a brand manifests in the metaverse. But also, it seems like a lot of the activations we're seeing from brands around NFTs are a little kind of I call them innovation, theatre, people doing things just to do things. And I know you're doing something in that space with Vayner NFT. What is the thing that a marketer should be thinking about when it comes to
Gary: Turning, turning marketing into a profit centre
Eric: In terms of buying NFT assets?
Gary: No, in terms of creating NFT projects that show up in people's public wallets, which is no different in five years, in my opinion, as doing a brand deal with an influencer, because you're getting awareness from endorsement of people holding, putting utility underneath the the token and turning into a profit centre because you're selling it and collecting royalties, turning costs historically activations of World Cups and Super Bowls that Olympics, turning costs, like celebrities being in your content, or performing at a show, turning that from a cost centre to a profit centre, because the ticket to Mariah Carey, doing a concert for your biggest clients becomes an NF t now that NFT then gets sold no different than a ComiCon item on eBay, that NFT with Mariah on it and the Salesforce logo on it is now a secondary derivative asset. Eric, where people are really struggling is because we have not lived in the world of digital ownership. And now we do and so people don't have anything to look at backwards to understand what's happening forward except historic human behaviour, like why they care about fashion, or why they buy a Mercedes Benz or why eBay does a trillion dollars in sales. That is where my puzzle is being put together. So I think brands can turn marketing into a profit centre. Pepsi, as you know, client of veiners they they do the Superbowl halftime show. Right think about what that could be. think about Procter and Gamble sponsoring the Olympics, these are major major things that have huge opportunities around them. And, and they spend a lot of money on costs, right? Even like the VIP parties and all this if you layer NFT's as a ticket as a membership, and it is a collectible, but also utilitarian aspect. If when you make a deal when you're Budweiser with Post Malone, and it's not just him being in your commercials and doing a couple of concerts, but there's a Post Malone NFT and you're getting royalties in perpetuity, you're talking about turning a cost centre into a profit centre. And I don't think people realise that yet.
Eric: Yeah, and the thing that I would add on to that, because it reminds me a little bit about, you know, obviously something that we talked about for years, and I fundamentally believe in which is building a media company around what you stand for. And that can also be monetized to turn marketing into a profit centre instead of a cost centre. It's still it's still doing that. It's still doing the things that you should be doing to drive growth of the business anyway, which I think
Gary: But I'm telling you standing up to your own, yes, standing up your own Gawker or your own barstool versus a very successful smart strategy and that if he land Yeah, the NFT land has a lot more upside in my opinion
Eric: Are brands more at risk within this bubble, the short term bubble, though
Gary: Only only if they do bad products that are successful and then collapse? Yeah. And I think the short term bubble is all how you speak to it. I think it's important to speak to the vulnerabilities the ups and downs of, you know, again, for me, one thing that everyone needs to focus on is right now the focus is on the art and the collectible, and that's very narrow. If you focus on the smart contract and a utilitarian that aspect that becomes a real big deal. Yeah.
Eric: So wanted to ask Vee friends, I'm assuming that was intentional. The friends aspect of it, is there anything to elaborate on there?
Gary: Yeah, I think, um, I think that what's very obvious to me is that I, and you really know this, this is actually very interesting. I, I believe in soft skills and kindness and good stuff. And like, I'm very much more kindergarten teacher, grandma, like, I'm a very big believer in a lot of this stuff. I have I'm plenty ambitious and tenacious and competitive. I've got those kinds of things. But I like the soft skills I like. And I like things like accountability. And I like all this stuff. You know, me so well, as a leader, I wanted to build a universe around it. And for me, the word friends is just so nice. I don't know what else to tell you. Like it felt like I knew where I was going with like the kids animation and all that stuff. It just felt right. I also liked the part of I was already thinking five years in advance of, of jayvees. You know, I've already in my mind thought about things like friends of V as like a framework and a platform and a division and an ecosystem where I can do collaborations with other people. So I'm really, I was really taken with that name, simple, easy to remember, it felt, you know, again, something you may have picked up in our decade of dancing. I'm pretty agnostic with names, I think names are made. I've said that a lot. You know, McDonald's sounds like an Upper East Side, English pub, not as what we know it or Google and Nike mean nothing until they mean something. But um, I think that it worked for me. And I think the simplicity work for me.
Eric: So let's talk about the people on the talent side of this world Vee friends, but then also NFT marketing in general. So I saw, it might have been a couple of months ago at this point that you're hiring for crypto, creatives and strategists. So I'm assuming that sits either within your own team or within Vayner NFT? What's the role that those people do? And what are the skills that you're looking for? Is it simply kind of like the traditional analogue slash digital skills for creative strategists applied to this world?
Gary: No, no
Eric: Or what are you looking for? And what should
Gary: Oh, well, marketers just got it. The creatives are creatives, creatives are amazing. They're flexible, right? Every creative that works on a brand at an agency actually wishes they were working on their own art, you know, which, so creatives are an incredible group of individuals who are flexible. So they've, you know, we were comfortable taking creatine from anywhere in any way, shape, or form, especially, and this has been our filter, if they have, you know, NFT behaviour, their collector, they understand the space, those nuances really matter. As far as, as far as strategists, that's probably the most interesting place we've come from, we've only been hiring people who've never worked in an agency and are 100% 100%, contextual to actual strategy around a successful launch of an NFT project, aka the people that keep the brands honest, of not doing the cliche brand stuff, which is always garbage for the consumer and good for the boardroom.
Eric: Yep. So these are people who are actually coming from the NFT crypto space, like have credibility and experience in that world. That's what you're looking for.
Gary: Yes, yes. Yeah. And usually as collectors is where you find most of them, you know, they're a collector, they're heavily involved for the last year, and they do something else. They're, they're, you know, a bank executive, they're, they're, you know, a freelance photographer, they're an admin, they're there. They're an entrepreneur with their own business that is just doing okay. They're, they're, you know, a marketing executive, they can be anything as long as they fully know what's going on.
Eric: Yep. Cool. So for marketers who are listening to this, if you had to sum it up, one thing that everybody should be doing over the next 30 days to really understand and get up to speed with what's going on in this space, if they are not already, what would it be?
Gary: Search hashtag NFT on Twitter and follow 50 to 100 people. Join five to seven discords of NFT projects, go to crypto slam.io. Or go to open sea rankings stats, look at the top 100 projects on both those platforms visually subjectively pick five to seven that you like that are in the top 100 and join their discords. And then the most important part between the 50 to 75 people you follow on Twitter, and to the five to seven discords you join, spend five to 10 hours a week, a week. And if you don't have it, three, but no less than three, three a week until you get to about 25 to 50 hours of education. And then you're now in the game.
Eric: Cool. And we will sum that up and put it in the show notes for everybody. So last two minutes, I hear you have a book coming out. Is there a right hook that you want to give to everybody to go check that out and what what it's about.
Gary: So I did a pre sale were on August 28. I said if you buy 12 books and sending the receipt, I'm going to enter drop you an NFT. I sold so many books that my biggest problem right now, Eric, is that we may not print enough for November 16. So I do not have a right hook. Even though I'm very proud of 12 and a half, I do think it's my most I'm trying to find the right. It's the only book that feels like crush it. And I guess that in itself is important to me. It's the only book where I feel like I'm saying things from a different place. I think I have a very compelling argument to what needs to happen in the business world. Yeah, from the emotional intelligence standpoint, please
Eric: It seems to me again, as an outsider more and more now. But it seems to me like this is increasingly what you're focusing on in terms of your legacy. Like you said that all the time. It's all about legacy. It seems like this message. And you know what, what real leadership should be? It seems like you're kind of focusing in more on that.
Gary: I started to realise I'm different, more so than maybe I even realised. And I think when I challenged myself in the last three years on this conversation, I'm unique and I'm vulnerable in this and you know, Eric, I don't like to be vulnerable. I speak and you know this better than anybody because you were close enough. The great flaw in my crazy repertoire of skills was I wasn't strong enough and candour. I tried to find ways to resolve by dancing. And when I finally reposition, I remarked I marketed candour to my own cells, and gave it this term kind candour. If you catch up with the crew that you know at Vayner, and said, Hey, what's scary been like, though? I know that they would say, it's been really different. The last 24 months he's found his way that candour under the guise of kind candour, which has really led itself to the two things that were always my vulnerability and again, you know, these for all the great stuff I have, and I really am extremely happy with who I naturally was as a leader and how my companies have done candour led to two things fear because people didn't know where they sat, which devastates me because my great pride was that I eliminated fear. In hindsight, I realised I created it without the candour and to entitlement because people thought they were better than you know them. And I was carrying a lot of my shoulders as you know. And so I'm excited about this book, because not only did I realise what made me strong, I also have come to realise where my weaknesses were, even though my strengths were so high, that it was like making things work, and now I believe with and that's why I call to 12 and a half instead of 13. In the book, I talk about kind candour being one of the 13 ingredients that matter, but I have to call the book 12 and a half because I'm only halfway through my own journey unchain candour. And I don't think I have the right to say, like, what I say here, and I give permission to the reader to understand, hey, six of these you may have you might not be good at accountability, as you know, which is really wild, right? Because I love accountability. But, but I struggled with candour. And so I'm really excited about I'm excited for someone like you to read it, because I think you're loaded with so much more context. And I think you'll even think it's strong, which makes me think it can be double strong to the world.
Eric: Cool. I love it. All right, Gary. I know. I love it. Really appreciate it.
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Eric: All right, on today's episode, we want to give a shout out to an organisation that I've known of and the co founder I've known for a long time now. And I think he's doing some fantastic work in the industry. And I've loved seeing the brand grow and the impact grow, and more and more people get involved. So Jake Dobbins, co founder and co chair of the conscious advertising network. Thanks for letting us as rival be a part of what you're doing. Would love to hear what is the conscious advertising network? Why did you set it up? What is the mission that you're on with it?
Jake: So yeah, the conservative As the network is a grand coalition, I guess a big tent of advertisers, agencies and critically civil society groups. So advertisers like GSK virgin oh two agencies like group em, have asked media. And then civil society groups include the UN's Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights and anti racist groups and anti semitism groups, climate groups. And the aim is for the ethics to catch up with the technology of modern advertising. So we've got six manifestos, one we're working on a lot at the moment is the misinformation manifesto on climate, we've got 26 happened, or happening. And, and the others are hate speech, children's well being advertising fraud, diversity, inclusion. Consent. And as I said, this information, HB
Eric: Yeah, and I think just that slogan, that mission statement of the ethics to catch up with the technology, I think there's so much in there, because a lot of people will just do what they're going to do and wait for the regulation to come up. But if people take action now just based on what it's ethically right, for all the things you mentioned, and more. Like there's a lot of change that can be driven, especially with, you know, big brands, and how and where they invest their money. So I think that's great. So, Jake, anything else that you want to tell the audience about? Can and definitely, let's make sure that we tell them where they can find out more and sign up?
Jake: Yeah, I think it's, it's really trying to build a as many people behind this as possible, it's free to join. Most of us are volunteers, myself and Harry, the co chairs are volunteers. We've got two boards, the hopefully aptly named get shipped on board, which is UK focused, we are now launching a global growth board. Because a lot of our international partners are looking for us to open can chapters in other parts of the world, because they've seen you know what the model does here. So it's free to join. Everything that we do, we aim to be open source, because the aim is to fix the problems as opposed to charge subscriptions or money from the industry or anything like that. We're not interested in that what we're interested in is trying to work together to fix the problems of things like climate, misinformation and hate speech. So there's a lot of us involved, you can either you want to get your company involved and behind it, then you can find out more at conscious ad network.com where all the manifestos are, but also, you know, we're a team mostly of volunteers. We've got a couple of staff now that are funded by philanthropic backing. But we are always looking for volunteers, people to look at recruiting more members training compliance. So always depends on how much people want to be involved. But certainly do get involved because these are big problems. But we can fix them together.
Eric: Time if everybody does their part. So we'll include a link in the show notes for today. Please do go check it out. Because I think the work you're doing and the team is doing is amazing. Super important. So Jake, thanks for everything. Thanks for coming on, and sharing with us what you're up to. I appreciate it.
Jake: Thanks, Eric. Yeah, appreciate it too. Cheers
Eric: Scratch is a production of rival. We are a marketing innovation consultancy that helps businesses develop strategies and capabilities to grow faster. If you want to learn more about us check out we are rivals.com If you want to connect with me, email me at Eric at we are rivals.com or find me on LinkedIn. If you enjoyed today's show, please subscribe, share with anyone you think might enjoy it. And please do leave us a review. Thanks for listening and see you next week.
