In today’s episode, Dean Aragón joins Eric in a conversation with David Rubin, Chief Marketing and Communications Officer of The New York Times, the storied newspaper with many millions of paid subscribers. The paper’s first CMO in its 100+ year history, David talks about how celebrating the NYT’s product leads to the business’ success.
There was lots of pushback when The New York Times made the controversial decision to place a paywall in front of some of its products back in 2011. But the decision to charge readers for the news paid off and now it has paywalls to aspects of its core product, Cooking, Games, and the newly acquired Athletic. How does the NYT convince customers to pay for their product when there is so much free news out there? The answer comes down to quality. David and his team highlight “how the sausage is made” in the brand’s ad campaigns, emphasizing that subscribing is the best way to help in its journalistic mission, and help maintain the journalism’s unparalleled quality. And for all your Wordle aficionados, David insists that the game did not become more difficult after being purchased by the Times. Tell that to my mom, David.
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Transcript
David: What is part of our brand, meaning it can't change. And what are just business decisions you make? And the things that are the latter are important, but they should change all the time. And so if you get those things wrong, you end up stuck in something that you believe is critical to who you are that doesn't need to be, and it holds back your growth if you get it wrong the other way. You give up something that's really core to who you are and people feel you're inauthentic.
Eric: I'm Eric Fulwiler and this is Scratch Bringing You Marketing lessons from the leading brands and brains rewriting the rule book from scratch for the world of today.
Hey everyone. My guest today is David Rubin, the Chief marketing Officer of the New York Times. I'm joined by Dean as co-host today, who knows David from their time together at Unilever. Really fascinating conversation. So David's been at the New York Times for six years. He actually created, along with the leadership team there, created the CMO role and he's the first CMO at the New York Times. So we talk a bit about how that happened, why it happened, and what he's done with that remit since he's become cmo. But David has a very long and tenured career as a marketer. He's the global head of brand for Pinterest. He's spent 15 years at Unilever. And so we talk a lot about a lot of different things that he's learned along the way and things that he's applied very successfully given the growth of the brand and the business in the New York Times over the last couple years.
We talk about how to unlock an emotional connection with your customers to drive growth. And it's really interesting hearing him talk about it because the New York Times is of course not just competing with other paid subscription platforms, but they're also competing with free news and free content. So the importance of brand and the emotional connection is that much more important. You have to over-index that much more for a business like the New York Times. He talks about how he's been able to drive a digital transformation agenda at the New York Times, what's required to make that happen within any business. And then I love a bit of a conversation that we have around this idea of the New York Times is a hundred plus years old, the definition of incumbent all these challengers popping up in the space. We talk a bit about the acquisition of the athletic as well, but really David talks about how he views the New York Times and is trying to instill this mindset in his team of they're a challenger in a new category of paid for news and journalism. And so it really comes down to a lot of what we talk about where every business can be a challenger. It comes down to how you think and act, not how old you are or how big you are as a business. So please enjoy my conversation with David Rubin, CMO and the New York Times.
Hey David, how you doing today? Thanks for joining us.
David: Thank you. Excited to be here. Thanks for having me on.
Eric: Of course. And Dean got to welcome my illustrious, how are you?
Dean: Hey. Hey guys. Hey David. Longtime. No see
David: Yeah, nice to see you Dean. Always good to be back together.
Eric: So you guys go back to your time at Unilever, is that right?
Dean Absolutely.
David: Yeah. I'm not even sure I can guess what year it's been. At least a decade. At least a decade,
Dean: Yeah. But I'd like to consider David as a lifelong friend.
David: Yeah, thank you Dean.
Eric: There You go. At least doing the occasional podcast together. So David, maybe you could just introduce yourself real quick. Obviously CMO of the New York Times, a brand that I think most people have heard of, but maybe you can talk a bit about your career path. You were at Unilever for a long time. You were a Pinterest for a bit. Tell us a bit about how you got to where you are today.
David: So after business school, I went to Unilever, ended up staying 15, 16 years, depends how you want to count it, but I did two main things there. I did the launch of acts body spray into the us, which is how I met Dean and then I did the turnaround of their US hair care business, so their beauty portfolio in the us. So I did that. I also, yeah, I did a couple of other little things, but those were the big main things I did. And I left there in 2014 and went to Pinterest as their head of brand. My job was to help them expand who they were for particularly internationally but not exclusively. And after a couple years of doing that, I came to the New York Times and I have been here, it'll be six years in April. I started as the head of brand, then became their first chief marketing officer at least that we're aware of in a hundred plus year history.
And then in a time when a lot of companies are questioning the role of the CMO, they added one which is interesting after not having one for a century. And then now I'm the head of marketing and communications. So the two together, we can certainly talk about why that is. So yeah, that's where I am. The line for me is what I see the role of marketing. What I like doing is helping a group of people and leading a company to unlock its emotional connection with their customer and potential customers and to do that to drive growth. So at Unilever I said I like turning the mundane into the magical the times. I wouldn't call mundane, but news is a sea of sameness. And our job is to help you understand why not only is the New York Times different from other news sources you can get, but so different that you would buy it over free just picture in any other industry. We're not only competing with competitors, but we're competing with people who don't charge at all. So to the bar, you've got to get people to believe you're different when a lot of your alternatives are free is really high. And so the fact that we've been as successful as we have been in recent years is I think really a testament to how good the product is.
Eric: So I definitely want to dive into that and I love the concept of unlocking the emotional connection to drive business growth, but I'd actually love to go back to the extent that you can share, what was the conversation around creating a C M O role for the New York Times? Like you said, in a world where a lot of businesses are leaning away for that or maybe questioning the value of a CMO and the average tenure of a CMO is going has gone down to the level that it is. How did you and the executive team at the New York Times decide to create this role and put you in it?
David: Well, to be honest, after I had been there a couple years and with the growth we were having, that wasn't the harder part of the conversation. The harder part I think was the discussion of having a brand role at all before I joined. And frankly, I share this that it took a little bit to convince me, not because I didn't believe in the New York Times brand, I absolutely, I've always loved the brand, I just didn't think of media as a place. Two things. One is I didn't think of media as a place for marketers like me would go. And the second thing was is I had just come from Pinterest and I wanted to be in a digital high growth company and that wasn't necessarily my perception of the New York Times. And actually when I met with my now boss, Meredith Levin, who's now the chief executive officer of the New York Times, Meredith convinced me that this was really just a digital subscription business and that we were actually becoming a consumer product, obviously a digital one versus a physical one, but a consumer product.
And so that really convinced me that this was a place I would've gone. And it's been totally true. I mean, I spend all my time thinking about how we get people to get digital subscriptions and we've gone from a few million subscriptions to now over 8 million subscriptions and actually 10 million if you include the purchase of the athletic. So to give you some idea, back in 2011 when the Times was putting in a paywall, most pundits thought that was not a good idea. Those who did think it was a good idea, the most bullish said maybe they'll get to a million subscribers Today, the Times has four businesses that are over a million subscribers. You've got the core New York Times subscription, you've got a cooking product that's paid, got our games product and the Athletic, which is a recent acquisition. And even within our core product, we have over a million subscribers outside the us. So the scale of the business and the growth rate of the business is just very different than people thought would be possible. And I frankly got lucky with my timing that I joined as that inflection point was happening.
Eric: So I was at Forbes, actually I was at forbes.com because back in the day it was literally a separate business in a separate office. It was a few years before the New York Times put up the paywall, but I remember those conversations and being in the media world when then as this whole web 2.0 wave started to crash. So David would love to pick your brain a little bit as a very senior marketer, what are some of the brands that you are very curious about or interested in right now and why?
David: Look and I, the three of us were talking about this a little bit before we started. I'm very curious to see what comes next for say a Peloton. I think there's a lot of brands in a similar position of Look no hotter brand from the last half decade or so. And I think they're now in a spot where they've got to figure out what they mean to people and what they mean to their employees and what do you do when the number of business decisions change. And so we'll talk about some of this in the context of our own company, but the idea of how you articulate your mission in a way that motivates both employees and customers, the idea of how your mission integrates with your business and that they're not separate things, divorced from each other. Those are all things I think they're, they would be curious to see, particularly for a company with a strong track record of really powerful marketing. What do they do next and how do they reignite their growth? So I'm interested in just as a student of the game to see what happens.
Eric: Yeah, me too. Lots of change going on and it is, it's always interesting to see how brands go through crisis. I think much people in some ways kind of the true metal comes out in a way. And so a lot of it, while in some cases they didn't do themselves any favors on the advertising side with some of the decisions that they made, really it's, it's not a problem with the brand. It's a problem with the supply chain and the product and all this stuff. And so it's going to be interesting to see how they do or don't rally behind the mission and the purpose and the values of the brand and see if they're able to rebuild it or get bought.
David: Well totally agree. And coming back to us for a minute, one of the lessons of the Times is success in recent years is that you really need a dramatic platform in order to really transform. You can't do it halfway. And then in some ways modest success is the biggest enemy of change. And so what's the old adage? Never squander a good crisis. I think the idea of how do you use your challenging moments to really define who you are and rally your team and rally your customer base and ignite growth. And I think certainly the times of story was one of, in 20 14, 20 15, we were doing okay coming out of that 2011 window, but we weren't really growing at the pace we wanted to. And in 2014 we had something called the innovation report, which was our now publisher who is a reporter in the newsroom wrote an internal memo about the need to really get our digital act in order.
And it was a horrible moment that in a bit of an irony that that note got leaked to Buzzfeed and published for everyone. And what turned out to be a couple of bad days turned out to be the best thing that ever happened to the Times because that public accountability of the self-critical piece really rallied us to change and it made us really commit to being a subscription first business and then led to a strategy a year later of journalism worth paying for. And that's really unlocked the growth, but it took a little bit seeing that we really needed dramatic change and I think that that's just a lesson from us that I think is interesting.
Dean: I'd like to pick on the point, David, about keeping the brand relevant, keeping it very, very modern and very attractive to a whole bunch of people kind of broadened the base. It would be an absolute <laugh> disappointment in a part of my family if I didn't ask you about Wardle because we are just literally obsessed with the game. I'm obsessed with the game and I know that the Times has been popular with Word Games, spellingBee your crosswords so far we're really appreciating the fact that it's not behind your paywall. And there's a debate about did the Times make Wordle harder by introducing new, more complex less common words because there were some days when some people struggled to make it even on the sixth try. Tell me about Wordle.
David: So well first of all, thank you by the way. That was a nice pitch for all of our games. So I'm going to have to put a note in the back of my head to make Dean our spokesperson a lot to unpack in that. I think the first thing I'll say is on your point about making a brand relevant, I think that as soon as you make that your objective, you mess things up. You try in ways that people can see through, particularly in the modern world where your intentions come through pretty clearly, at least with a little bit of time. What we're always looking for is our mission is to seek the truth and help people understand the world. And we see games as part of that sort of process of understanding playing as one way to appreciate the world around you in a new way.
And so we've had a games business, frankly, crosswords are, I don't know when crosswords entered newspapers, but it's long before I was reading one. And so the idea of games being a part of an engagement suite in a newspaper is something that's been around a long time. We've had a crosswords app for a while. As I said a little earlier, we now have over a million subscribers to our games app and the team that works on that saw the hit that Wordle was and was able to bring it into our, and I think I can say which Jonathan Knight, who's the person who looks after games. So expertly said very clearly, we did not make, I know all the noise, but we did not make the words harder. In fact, the words you're playing were picked before us <laugh>. If anything we've, we have made a couple of changes to the word dictionary with the intent of making them easier.
We moved removed words like a Agora is one we've shared that was in the list that we felt was a little too obscure. So it's just a little bit, it's actually a good example of the power of brand people seeing something that they want to see that was part of the natural cycle of the game. But the idea behind the acquisition is just that we're looking for things that matter to people in news and information on a daily and on a daily basis. And Wordle is something that tens of millions of people are playing and it gives us fit very well with our existing platform.
Eric: So the thing that I find most fascinating about that acquisition and the athletic acquisition to a certain extent is how quickly it seemed to happen. Because I think it's one thing to have a strategy of, Hey, we're looking for these opportunities, our businesses about this, but it's another to move incredibly quickly to go after and bring those types of businesses into the fold of a more established business. So I'm guessing there's not too much that you can talk about with that, but I just wanted to call that out as I think that's super impressive to see a more traditional incumbent business really move like a challenger when it comes to these types of acquisitions. But maybe we can use that as a jumping off point to a question that maybe you can speak to a little bit more or in more detail is I'm clearly getting in how you're talking and what you're saying, David, there's a very clear mission, vision, set of values, strategy that's defined in your head and the you're brand guy, you're the CMO as it should be. Like I'm sure you have all those talking points and you've run over them many, many, many times. How do you keep your team, and I'm guessing a big part of your responsibility as CMO is also the internal piece of it and employees at the New York Times as well as the external audience you have and potential audience you want to reach. How do you keep everybody clear and aligned on what the mission needs to be and what matters most within it?
David: Yeah, so like we were talking about mean the times it's been around for a hundred and well over a hundred years, one of the things that's true about the company is a lot of these things were known, but they weren't explicit, they weren't written down. And so other thing has really changed since that 2014 moment, and it's been on a gradual but increasing path is to make the implicit explicit. It's one of our principles is that there is a value, there's a power in having not just the same concept but the same words. And so I don't want to put too much credit in this, but one of the first things my team did when I arrived is we wrote a brand book for the whole company. Now as a company that's not marketing driven in any way, shape or form, that wasn't something they would've done before.
And so the power in doing that was to give everybody, so when you do have empowered teams working in a cross-functional way and the CMOs not in the room, which is almost all meetings almost all the time, how do you have them able to work through their different tension points and different perspectives with a set of principles? And I think that's what we've really been able to do. Some of that predates me. So as I said before, we had this path forward in 2015, which was really the moment. While it wasn't framed this way, the company figured out what really mattered to the brand. And if you go back far enough in this journey, people thought that the printed paper was part of the brand or the printed word was part of the brand. Today we've got podcasts and television shows. The Daily is one of the most listened to podcasts in America.
The framing Britney Spears was a really powerful documentary that we did. We do infographics and visual journalism things that have really let us connect with the audience in a different way, but it's still about fulfilling the same mission. And so the thing we needed to decide is what is part of our brand meaning it can't change and what are just business decisions you make and the things that are the latter are important, but they should change all the time. And so if you get those things wrong, you end up stuck in something that you believe is critical to who you are that doesn't need to be, and it holds back your growth if you get it wrong the other way. You give up something that's really core to who you are and people feel you're unauthentic inauthentic, and so there's no answer to getting it right other than get it right.
Eric: Yeah. But I think that's such an important point because we're all about understanding and helping our clients apply the recipe for success of challenger brands, if you will. What is it about some businesses that make them grow faster than others? And ultimately that comes down to, and there's frameworks and the definitions and all this stuff that actually goes into it, but fundamentally what it comes down to, if you can only identify one thing is these brands and these businesses the way they go to market. And of course there's something to be said about the product side as well, but when it comes to the remit of marketing, they're fit for purpose for the world of today. They take advantage of and understand the cultural landscape, the competitive landscape, the technological landscape, the talent landscape fit for purpose and being fit for purpose at any given time is one thing, but being fit for purpose in an era when things constantly change is another.
And you got to find that balance of what is it that you need to probably very aggressively maintain and keep the way it is and what's parts of it need to change in order to allow you to be fit for purpose as the world change changes around you. So I think that's a really interesting conversation. I'm also one other question just on the acquisition side of things, not specifically about that, but I think it's an interesting angle into this. So again, challenger incumbent, that's kind of what we're fascinated by. And so I think it's interesting looking at the athletic versus the New York Times, if you will, challenger media company, incumbent media company. Obviously there's the content, the events, the advertising, all of that integration, but have you spent much time with, I assume there's a marketing team at the Athletic and I'm just curious if you see a different perspective or how you're kind of integrating what they've done to build their brand with what you are doing and your team for the New York Times brand?
David: Yeah, well, what I should say is that the acquisition just closed not very long ago, and one of the things we really are doing is actually in both the cases of Wordle and the Athletic, although Wordles not, doesn't have a big team behind it, the athletic does, we're moving very intentionally, meaning the idea is to the athletic has been just super successful and we want to keep that magic and not feel this pressure to jump in there and change anything that that's really important just for the sake of doing so. Like you said, their team has done a really great job and the goal is to preserve that and to see what we can add to that to accelerate growth as opposed to seeing something that we need to overhaul and change around. So the core of who the athletic is and its proposition of unlocking the passion that people have for teams and leagues is something that we're, there's no intention of messing with in any way, shape or form.
Eric: Yeah, I was actually curious if maybe there's something to learn from them. Hey there, here's this challenger brand in the space that's been super successful. Can we take some of that challenger marketing mindset model and bring that into what you're doing with the core brand?
David: Yeah, absolutely. I mean the, the connection they have with their subscriber base is really enviable and so certainly something we're studying both at the emotional level and at the mechanical level, technological level. The other thing I'll say just about the times overall is one of the things we really like, the Times is a super well-known brand and few brands our size have the kind of presence we have. So I'm not going to call us a challenger brand, but the mindset that we've really tried to instill is rather than see ourselves as the leader in a long-standing industry that's saturated, we see ourselves as a player in a category that's barely taken off and that's subscription supported journalism. The reality is there's 180 to 200 million people who are reading news just in this country, digital news in this country every month. And the number of people who pay for that is a small fraction.
The times itself, we have a hundred and 150 plus million people who come every month and the number of subscribers is in I is in the seven 8 million range. And that dif picture another business that has that kind of ratio of people who interact with the product regularly to the people who pay for it. And so our job is, I mean, almost no other business could survive. And so our job is to close that gap and to show people that what jour the journalism worth paying for exists and you get the quality of journalism you pay for. So if you're not paying for it, you should ask yourself a question and that's what our job is. And so that gives us more of a challenger mindset, depending what you mean by that of we're in a category that needs to be grown, grown and built, and we have to earn people's understanding of what it is we're doing. It's not a habit that everyone we want to be doing is doing yet yes, they're reading and interacting with the news, but they're not paying for it. They don't have a subscription relationship with a news provider or more than one news provider at the scale that we want them to. Now that number's changing a lot and we're really, the inflection rate is all there, but there's still a long way to go
Dean: And I think that's the most fascinating but also the most difficult thing that you have now taken on as a challenge to your point, it's about constantly earning that subscription, constantly earning the fact that they are now paying for the content that they like. Just a lot of the set of the videos and demand that are based on subscription payments, not freemium for instance. And that of course takes away the burden of advertising which people who don't want to pay have to take on. That of course requires as well the classic marketing challenge of having the right levels of excitement. You're known in our days at Unity work, as you said to us this earlier in the call, how you always work on transforming the mundane to magical every business and every brand wants to be preferred, but that requires compelling differentiation. What in your view is the single most important differentiating sort of superpower of New York Times in its entirety?
David: It's the care and craft that goes into the creation of the journalism. And if you look at the ad campaigns we've been running, and I should say of the people who are doing the journalism as well, all the campaigns we've been doing explore that from different angles. So if you look at the truth is worth it from a few years ago, what those ads did was they highlighted how hard it is to get the story and all the obstacles that journalists can face in getting that story all the way down to some people who literally try to stop it from happening as we particularly in cases where we're showing truth to power. And so it's really about, it's interesting because I think the most of the ads we've done are some version of how the sausage gets made as a genre of ad, which typically don't work very well because they tend to be about you, not about the audience. And in this case, they've worked because the process of telling you how we make the journalism or helps earn your trust, when you realize all of the expertise that these journalists have that they put into this independent, original journalism, you understand why we believe that that helps you on your own path to find the truth. And that journalism alone isn't sufficient, but it's important. It's one important tool that people have to help them figure out what are the facts.
Dean: That sounds compelling to me.
Eric: So I wish that we had more time. There's so much more that I want to get into, but I'm just conscious we probably only have five or six more minutes. So maybe let's talk a little bit about digital transformation. I think we've talked around it, but before we press record, you were talking about this mix of things that's required that needs to overlap between brands, business kind of internal motivation of employees in order to deliver effective digital transformation. So can you talk a bit about your perspective on that and maybe talk about, again, we've touched on it a little bit, but bring it all together in terms of how you've been able to help drive that digital transformation agenda at the New York Times?
David: Yeah, look, I think one reason that we've done very well is that our mission, our brand, our business, the employee proposition, we see them as all part of a suite of things. And so one of the reasons that's so important for us is our mission is to seek the truth and help people understand the world. We don't control what the facts are, so we whatever our job is to surface those facts, whether whatever they lead. Sometimes that can make you feel challenged in your existing thinking. You may not like where the facts lead all the time, just as a reader as, and what's interesting is I think in some businesses you could say, well give the reader customer what they want in the case of our business, if you do that, you miss the underlying proposition, which is to help them understand the world. Sometimes the world isn't what you want it to be.
And so it's really incumbent on us to not do what only works in the short term, not only give the customer what they think they're looking for, but to look at the long term relationship of what the customer wants, which is to challenge their thinking, to help them understand the truth no matter how inconvenient it is. And so that gives us this sort of permission through our mission to have patience with our business. The folks making the journalism, don't think about the business impact in any way. They just run the journalism, but because the mission is the same thing that people want from us, that's why we're able to grow. If they were different, what would happen is we would put something out on the content and people would say, well, that's not what I wanted to read about, but there isn't that reaction because that's not what I wanted to read about as part of our proposition. And so you get the point I think it applies even outside of a content business is what do you believe is so integral to your customer relationship that you would be willing to lower your short-term business results for it because you believe that it's critical to the long-term relationship. That to me is the definition of brand and the definition of mission. And so as long as those things come together, then ultimately your business success comes from the fact that you keep amplifying that mission and that brand.
Eric: How do you stay on top of, again, especially for a business like yours, a brand like yours that's literally in the middle of all the change that's happening in the world, how do you stay on top of an understanding and a connection with your customer? Because I think ultimately all innovation, all business growth comes from a understanding and ideally a differentiated understanding of the customer you're trying to reach to be able to unlock value for them through your brand or through your product or through your service. And so to a certain extent, good marketing needs to start an end with an understanding of the customer. How do you do that at the New York Times?
David: Yeah, I mean, look, I think it's a combination of internal, external. We have an expert audience insights team, and a really first class data and analytics team, and they all work together. The audience insights team is part of marketing, and the data and analytics is separate, but we all try to work together and try to make sure that we understand who the audience is. It's important to say that obviously the journalists work independent of that. Their thing is they follow the facts and there's much less of a customer in a research sense going on because that's the proposition of the journalism. But from a business opportunity and from a marketing perspective, we use a combination of those insights and the analytics that we have. Again, we're a digital first business, so we've got lots of analytics that are really powerful to us. And then we couple that with just looking outside.
I'm a believer that the, it's a lot easier to look for analogies in other businesses than it is to totally invent something new. I mean, Dean knows this, but when we launched AX in the US back in 2002, we did it with a simple question, which was how would a movie studio launch a deodorant? At the time, it was the Blair Witch project had just happened. And so we had taken that coupled with a little bit of M T V and said, if they ran this, what would they do? And that's how we did the launch, and that made it feel fresh and different just because we were looking outside for our inspiration.
Eric: So unfortunately, we are out of time, but the last question that I always ask all guests, and I'm actually going to ask Dean this first and then come to you, David, what is one thing, the one thing that people listening to this conversation should do differently now that they've heard it? Dean, what's one thing that people should do differently? Based on what David said today,
Dean: I was very moved by what David shared about having a singular mission that really brings everyone together, whichever role they have, whether it's the business, whether it's the writers, whether it's the editors, it's the one thing that pulls everyone in the same direction. I think that's what makes it authentic and ultimately makes it very compelling and very magnetic.
David: For one thing, for me, it's about start with telling the story internally. A, it's a great test case, but B, I think that ultimately customers in the outside world can tell what's going on inside. Maybe not in the short run, but pretty quickly. And so in the end, if your own staff believes it and understand or pointed in a similar direction, that's a pretty good sign that you're it. It's a prerequisite to then making that change on the outside. I think
Eric: I'm just thinking that's really good advice for me, it's early stage startup, there's new people joining. There's a lot of change. I really need to make sure that I'm starting on the inside, so that can be reflected on the outside. So I learned something today for sure. Oh, David, thank you so much for making the time. It was great to finally sit down and chat. Dean, I appreciate you stepping into the co-host chair once again, I will let you both get back to your days but thank you, and we'll talk again soon.
David: Eric, thank you. Always
Dean: Great to see you, David.
David: Yes, great to see you, Dean, as always. And thank you both for the opportunity
Eric:Take care. Take care everyone.
Eric: Scratch is a production of Rival. We are a marketing innovation consultancy that helps businesses develop strategies and capabilities to grow faster. If you want to learn more about us, check out we are rival.com. If you want to connect with me, email me eric@wearerival.com or find me on LinkedIn. If you enjoyed today's show, please subscribe, share with anyone you think might enjoy it, and please do leave us a review. Thanks for listening and see you next week.
