This week, Eric talks to Tina Cassidy, the CMO of GBH about the rebranding of Boston’s public broadcaster and the largest creator for public media in America. Trust is not only central to GBH as a company, it is central to GBH’s mission as a public news source. It goes without saying that we find ourselves in an ever-changing information landscape where news is no longer traditionally produced or consumed, and the news media is increasingly seen as divided and divisive. Building trust with this new generation of consumers has been central to Tina’s mission at GBH. Through a commitment to transparency when it comes to gathering information from consumers and truly living its values, GBH has remained a deeply trusted media source. Get in touch with Tina at tina_cassidy@wgbh.org and find GBH on Twitter https://twitter.com/GBH
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Transcript
Tina: There's always an opportunity to to lose trust. I think it's the building of it. That is harder.
Eric: I'm Eric Fulwiler. And this is scratch, bringing you marketing lessons from leading brands and brains rewriting the rulebook from scratch for the world of today.
Hey, everyone, my guest today is Teaneck Cassidy, Chief Marketing Officer at GBH GBH, for those of you in the US, I'm sure you've heard of them, for those of you in the UK, Europe are further afield you might not have. But GBH is the largest crater for public and media in America, which includes PBS, NPR, and PRX. So their national in their scope, but they're locally rooted in Boston, which is where I'm from. So we talk a lot about my nostalgia and awareness with the brands of GBH growing up. And Tina as the CMO. She doesn't come from a traditional marketing background, she has a really interesting and rich career history. She was at the Boston Globe as a reporter for 17 years, and then spend time in the agency world. And then has been at GVH. For three years. Now, she has also written four books, and has a TED talk that you can go check out. So we talked about a lot of interesting things. Of course, anybody who's listening to this has heard me talk about how I think modern marketing is about building a media company around what you stand for. So it was really interesting to talk to Tina about her background as a journalist, and how that shaped how she thinks about her role. As a CMO. We also talk about trust, how to build trust, as a brand, and how she has been doing that at GBH how she thinks about that. And then we also talk about the rebrand that she led and went through a GBH as its first CMO. So not just what she did, and why she did it, but also the the task of making sure that she got the buy in from the 900 employees that GBH has, and that everybody was really behind what she and the team wanted to do. So really enjoyed this conversation, bring me back to my Boston roots, but some fascinating advice and perspective for all marketers out there. Please enjoy my conversation with Tina Cassidy.
All right, Tina, it's so good to see you. Thank you so much for making the time. Welcome to the show. How are you doing today?
Tina: It's my pleasure to be here. I'm doing well. Thank you all things considered.
Eric: Yeah. You're joining from my hometown of Boston, where I will be we're recording this December 7, we're flying home Touchwood COVID. Not getting in the way on December 15. So I'm excited to be back in Boston. We'll be glad to have you. Amazing. So Tina, maybe we can just start with a little bit about you. So you have you know, interview a lot of CMOS that come up straight through the marketing ranks. You have a very interesting background. I know that's something that we're going to talk about a little bit later in the episode, but maybe introduce yourself to our listeners. Tell us a bit about the Tina Cassidy story and how you ended up a CMO of WGBH.
Tina: Sure, I am a native of New England and grew up around here my whole life working in journalism. My first job in journalism was primarily at the Boston Globe and covered a range of beats. So I was a reporter and an editor covering everything from sports to politics to fashion, and left the journalism world around 2005. And went to the agency side, I had I led a number of different practice areas. And agency hops, my most recent agency that I was at was called Ink house. And I was the Executive Vice President and Chief Content Officer there. And what was interesting about ink house, which was started around 2008/09. Right around the time that blogging and social media became a thing was that that was an agency that was reinventing public relations and digital marketing. And so the fact that I came on board to create a content Bureau, basically to sort of set up a mini newsroom, if you will, to help tell the stories of our clients was pretty groundbreaking. And I felt very comfortable in that role having come up, come up out of journalism, as well. So that included everything from you know, developing infographics and video and, you know, content plans for social media, all of which sound completely normal today. But, you know, over 10 years ago, this was sort of cutting edge,
Eric: I remember. yeah,
Tina: Yeah. And so I then switched from the eight Fancy world to become the Chief Marketing Officer at GBH that happened about three years ago. So that was my big coming over to, to in journalism, what would be considered the dark side, but, but I actually feel like if you are doing marketing for a brand that you really believe in, and a mission that you care about it is as as personally fulfilling as journalism ever was for me. Yeah. And I also should say, I write nonfiction books on the side. So storytelling is just baked into who I am. It's reflexive, I can't help myself. And I enjoy it a lot.
Eric: I saw that on your website, you've got how many books have you published?
Tina: I've written 4 books. Yeah.
Eric: 4 books, amazing
But I think it's also, you know, coming from a journalist background, it's not like you've gone to a company that's selling soap or sneakers or shirts. It's like, you know, GBH is one of the largest creators of public media in America. So there is that natural extension? I think, if you tell me if you disagree, but, you know, it seems like almost in that if any journalist of 20 plus years was going to go into a marketing role, this seems like a great one to go into, to build on what you've done in the earlier stages of your career.
Tina: It really is. And it certainly helped also that I had grown up on public media, and literally had grown up watching, you know, Boston's channel two, which is the Boston PBS station. Of course, GBH is so much more than a local channel, we are, as you mentioned, the largest creator of content for PBS. And we also run NPR stations in Massachusetts.
Eric: Yep. Yeah, I'm bummed that my kids don't get to grow up, well, actually, maybe is there like an OTT option that we can dial into there must be at this point right there.
Tina: I don't know if PBS on your TV apps over there. But of course, everything is available on streaming. And depending on your kids ages, you know, you can always watch Arthur on on the website. And there are apps and games and all kinds of really wholesome awesome things for kids to watch and play with.
Eric: We will the check that out. I mean, obviously, the BBC is great, but as an American who grew up in Boston have a sweet spot for WGBH, and PBS and all that. So why don't we talk about, you know, you're talking about this a little bit before we hit record. But one of the things that I talk a lot about, and that we work with clients on at rival is this idea of modern marketing actually being more about building a media company around your brand, than it is doing the traditional stereotypical advertising. And by that what I usually mean, because I'm talking to marketers who don't come from a journalist background.
So it'll probably be, you know, an easier thing, or more obvious thing for you, it's probably how you think about it already. is, to me, the biggest difference between a publisher or media company, and an advertiser is how they think about the value exchange with their audience. If you're a journalist, if you're writing a book, if you are a media company, you are focused first and foremost on adding value to the audience you're trying to reach. And again, the stereotypical cliche marketer is more focused on extracting value. So one, do you agree with that? And what are your thoughts? And then two? If so, do you kind of see this? Or how have you thought about your transition from journalism into marketing?
Tina: Yeah, well, the transition from journalism into marketing was quite easy, because I clung to the idea, which I think is the right one, that ultimately you're telling a story, and trying to connect to the audience's that, that that matter most. And it's interesting, because especially on the agency side, you know, there was constantly tension between trying to develop a story that would resonate with the potential customer or client of, you know, whoever was on our roster at the time. And the client wanting to talk about themselves, right, we have the best product we have, you know, the coolest new thing, and this is, you know, and this is why you should care, as opposed to flipping the story around to talk about the audience, you know, the end buyer, or the customer and what they care about. And I think that if marketing is done, right, it's it's more about the the audience or the customer than it is about the Creator. You know, the product maker, the service provider, and that I think that tension is always there. It's a natural instinct, right? Like, oh, we created a widget. It's the best widget ever check it out. Well, no one cares About your widget, you have to talk about, like what their pain points are, and why they might ever want to consider buying it. Or trying it. So, you know, I think that that tension will always be there. To your point about, you know, companies and organisations being their own media companies, I couldn't agree more, I think that we today really have to think about multi platform stories. You know, it's not just text based information on a website. It's also, you know, thinking about what's the TikTok play and how are you showing up on YouTube? And how are you providing opportunities for true believers in your product or service to go spread the words on their own is you know, influencer marketing and all like that? Do you want to pay for influencer marketing versus having it just be organic? Do you want to be co creating products and services? You know, so there's so much more opportunity now. But I think if you start by centering the audience or the customer you're trying to reach, you will be much better off than starting by centering yourself.
Eric: Are you familiar with jobs to be done? As a framework? Clayton Christensen, the innovators dilemma?
Tina:Yeah of course
Eric: Yeah, so I think about that a lot. And I feel really lucky. You know, I came up in marketing roles and spend 10 years in advertising agencies helping a little bit as well. But the last two and a half years before founding rival is basically in a product business. And so it was so enlightening, and really stretched my perspective, seeing how, you know, I think was a fantastic team built FinTech products, because they're really thinking about exactly what you said, How do I serve the needs of the end consumer? Not? How can I build something that I think is cool. And that's basically what jobs to be done, framework explains, and people should go check it out, we can put some info in the show notes. It's, if you've heard the expression, people don't need a quarter inch drill, they need a quarter inch hole in the wall. It's exactly that nobody cares about the drill, they care about the job that it's actually doing for them. And being in a product business, you kind of realise that good product and good marketing, really all come from the same place, which is does it solve the needs of the audience you're trying to reach? And so I always say people like what's your what's the best marketing book I can read, I'm like, go read, go read jobs to be done. Go read innovators dilemma. Because if you can solve a need for the audience you're trying to reach whether you're in a product role or a marketing role. That's the fundamental challenge and opportunity. So understanding that and the perspective that you just explained, I think is fundamental to any business being successful with the product they build with the marketing they do.
Tina: I agree, 100%. And I would say that that centring the audience first in product development, extends to how that product gets marketed. Right? So really knowing that end user well enough so that you know, what media they consume, and how they consume it, and what their affinity groups are, and so forth. And, you know, what's going to move them to make a decision? And that all seems obvious, but you know, when when you actually try to go out and do it, you can't just assume that, you know, everyone's driving down the highway looking at a billboard, right? Because they might not own a car, you know, and not be able to see that message in that way.
Eric: Yep. I have two sidetracks to take us down. And then we can come back to the main conversation. So the first as you mentioned, TikTok And for me, you know, I'm talking to a lot of marketers on a day to day week to week basis. So I kind of get a perspective of the general state of things when it comes to how people are thinking about new platforms, new trends, new topics. I feel like, you know, more people are dipping their toe in the TikTok water. And of course, it totally depends on the type of business you're in. But there's still this. It's for younger people, there's a brand risk potential issue and like all those things should be considered is your audience there Is it safe for your brand to be there, but I just the amount of attention and time that spent on the platform is unbelievable. And in the work that we have done with some clients that have gone in the organic reach and even some of them really going viral. And I hardly ever use that word because it almost doesn't exist and other platforms that are more mature anymore. So just be curious what your experience has been thinking about TikTok how you've approached it and what you're doing on it.
Tina: Great question. TikTok is really fascinating. You know, I have a son who's right in that age range. And yet my my mother is also on TikTok you know, so it has it has become a thing where people are consuming a lot of time and content. But what we have thought a lot about in terms of TikTok and when I say we I mean that The GBH brand and public media in general is thinking about it as an opportunity to reach young people with important information, whether it's information about civics, or history or science, you know, all of the content pillars that that our brand is built upon? And how do we do that in a way that's authentic, so that it's not taking information from a documentary series and just recording it and putting it on TikTok, we know that that won't work, right. So we're thinking about new ways to do that. I think there's a really interesting case study with the Washington Post, they have their TikTok guy who has been, he has been viral and really popular to teach younger people just what happens in a newsroom. Right. And so, you know, they're not trying to convert people to become subscribers on the spot using that TikTok channel. They're merely trying to, you know, help people of a younger generation understand that there's this thing called a newspaper. Right? So this is a very different premise. And I think that that, that that can be an opportunity in and of itself, you know, talking maybe this is a good segue to talk about how you build trust, and how you just build brand awareness. I think TikTok is good for that. You know, it might not have the same conversion rate as say, Instagram, if you actually want people to click and buy something. But I think it is good as a sort of sticky material to get people to, to know about you, and to see what you're what you're like, is this a brand with humour? Is this a brand that I can relate to? Is this a brand that has a voice? That sounds like me, you know, are the people talking to me on TikTok like me? And so, you know, there's definitely opportunity there, I think, you know, concocting the right strategy for specific outcomes is really where the rubber meets the road. Yeah, when you want those people following you on TikTok to do.
Eric: Yeah, and a lot of it comes down to producing content that's contextual to the platform that you're on. So exactly, like you said, you can't just cut up a documentary and put it on there. Because that content doesn't fit with the platform. One of the examples I always throw out there is if you go look up the first TV ad, it's literally a radio spot, put on TV with a static image. It's for watch company. It's fascinating. It seems ridiculous. But it's no more ridiculous than taking a documentary or a TV commercial now and putting it on tTikTok, it's not contextual for the platform. Right. So yeah, I mean, like, wherever their stuff I come back to with all this is like, really what we're talking about is good marketing fundamentals. You know, the, the way in which you execute them on each of these platforms is slightly different. But it's understanding your audience. It's understanding where the attention of your audience is, and maybe in a way that your competitors haven't gotten there yet. So you can reach it in a more underpriced, more efficient way. And then it's telling stories they care about in a way that's contextual to the platform. It's really Yeah, yeah.
Tina: And I would say, that is so important, because who knows what's what TikTok is going to be in three to five years if it's even going to exist, if people will be over it in the way that they're over Facebook, right? You know, and I think other publishers like, like ourselves, have feel like, you know, we've gotten burned by Facebook, algorithmic changes, and, you know, you invest a lot of time and money and effort into a particular platform, and they could change the game right out from under you, right? So just always being aware that is a dynamic environment and TikTok might be hot right now. But you know, who knows what else is coming?
Eric: Yep.
Eric: Here a rival, we partnered with a test a powerful consumer research platform to start producing our own proprietary research on challenge or marketing trends. And you'll hear more about that soon. Each week. In the meantime, we're going to be highlighting a report from a test that adds context to each episode, and the guests that we have on so for today's conversation with Tina, we wanted to highlight the US media consumption report that a test put out recently. So in this report, you'll learn that while TV viewing is on a downward trend in 2021, it's good news for radio, Americans listen to more radio in 2021, with just 11%, saying they never listened compared to 20% in 2020. To find out more from this report, head on over to ask a test.com. Here, you can also run a free survey to access 110 million consumers in 49 markets to remove the guesswork from your business growth.
Eric: So there's two segues now, because you teed me up very nicely to go down my other side track and you also teed up how you build trust. So I'm gonna take the sidetrack because I think the trust conversation will be a longer one. And I actually don't know if this sidetrack is interesting. You tell me. I'd be curious to hear how you're thinking about first party data. When it comes to what you just said about how platforms can change the algorithms whenever they want. They actually own the relationship with the customer, you don't. But also, as you're thinking about Ott, and you mentioned at the very beginning, you know, there's the app where you can get the content directly. And just as we transition into kind of a increasingly post cookieless, third party data world, how does that fit into the mind mapping of you as a CMO?
Tina: Well, I feel like we're really lucky as a media organisation, because we own a lot of our channels, literally, on our own channels, right. So we have a, we have too broad, we have a number of broadcast channels, we have multiple websites, we have multiples social channels, which I get that there's other, there's data streams related to those. But you know, we have our own YouTube channels, and so forth that, again, that that has other algorithmic aspects to it, we have lots of email newsletters, so there's a lot that we can control. And I think that, you know, what we're really leaning into is the things that we can control. Because I think that will serve us the best in the long run, you know, making sure that we're also a member organisation, right, so making sure that we are collecting emails in a comfortable and responsible way. And, you know, making sure that when we're collecting data, it's, it's really just to make sure that we can serve our members in a way that they want to be served. So they want to know, when, you know, there's a new documentary series coming out or, you know, some other important programme. You know, I think even the fact that cookies are going away is is, you know, gets back to this point that the sort of the landscape beyond what we can control is constantly changing. And so if you just double down on what you what you can do for yourself, I think that that's a really good place to start. You know, the data question is related to trust. And I don't mean to just drag us down the, you know, to the trust conversation, but I do think it's important, because, you know, we think a lot about what information we might might want to collect, you know, if you remember, you're giving us your credit card number, and your address and your email. And we are completely off course, completely proprietary about that. You know, I think people have really woken up to what kind of information they're, they're giving up by being on certain social platforms, I think people are becoming quite wary about, you know, location data, and, and everything else that, you know, we have given up in exchange for free services, whether it's, you know, search or connecting with our friends. So, I think that as that evolves, and we move even into this other new phase of the Internet called, you know, the metaverse that, we just have to be really careful, I think what the last thing that we want is for our members, our audiences to not trust us with their information. And I think that that that very fact prevents us from collecting more data, we will kind of say, okay, that's sort of all we need. We don't need any more. You know, although data is very helpful for us as an organisation to make decisions about, you know, what are people watching and listening to? And, you know, what's the average age and we have we have information like that. And, and you know, being a nonprofit, being a non commercial entity is helpful, because we're, all we're trying to do is sell information, right, where we're offering, we're not even selling it we are offering for free educational programming to our viewers and listeners.
Eric: Yep. It's a little bit different. Well, it sounds like a lot of what you're saying actually ties in to what we were talking about with jobs to be done and understanding your audience and adding value. It's collecting data for the purpose of adding value, as opposed to for the purpose of having more or your own commercial purposes, and actually the nonprofit piece be curious how that weaves into the conversation around trust, which Yes, let's go to that. I was just checking my notes, even though your comment about the metaverse is a very tempting sidetrack. Let's talk about trust. So GBH, has GBH is mission statement is we are a trusted source of content that promotes educational equity, delights its audiences and inspires everyone to engage with the world around them. Trust is the fourth word, the first meaningful word. So obviously, it's important as CMO, how do you think about trust, building trust keeping Trust, how does that fit into what you do?
Tina: That is really the most important thing that I think about because this is a brand built on trust. 70 years of trust, right PBS and NPR are also among the most trusted brands in America. So we, I inherited this legacy of trust. At a time when people all over the world are trusting media less, right. And so how do we retain the trust? How do we instil trust with a new generation that might not own a television might not own a car and therefore is not listening to traditional radio, and is getting all of their information from TikTok or Instagram? Right? So this is, this is our challenge, it requires, I think, a lot of different tactics, you know, to build trust over 70 years for a brand, like that's a long, hard job to do. And we could lose it in a day. If, you know, we had a producer who had factual inaccuracies and a frontline story, or who, you know, made made a mistake or said something arrived on air. So there's always an opportunity to to lose trust, I think it's the building of it. That is harder. You know, so I think co creating content, really understanding our audiences and making sure that we are giving them what they want, because if they think that they see themselves in our content, it, it feels more for them, and they can trust it and believe it and want to share it with their own community. I think that those are sort of some of the basics. And that can even be portrayed in the marketing that we do. So showing the representation of our community, feeling authentic, not telling people what they should know, watch, listen to, but understanding what they have asked for, and then providing it is fundamental to building trust.
Eric: Yeah, I was actually going to ask, you know, if there were any learnings or recommendations you could make to people who, you know, might be in a different type of business, or might be at a different level where they're not the CMO, but do believe in trying to build trust, but I think you just kind of touched on it there is there anything else that you would share for someone who believes the trust is important wants to build that with the marketing activity they're doing, but maybe it's not as inherently part of the business as it is a GBH or maybe they're not in the CMO seat where they can fully control everything that goes out.
Tina: I don't think you have to be in the CMO seat at all, I think, you know, being creating a trustworthy brand, is probably related to the values that a company or organisation is built upon, even making sure that you have values and that the employees know what those values are, and they live it every day, you know, because trust can show up in lots of different ways. You know, do people trust your product? Do people trust your marketing promise? Do people trust that you're a good organisation paying your employees fairly, that you're not polluting the environment? You know, these are all things that customers care about today, you know, what kind of company Am I even buying my product or service from? I think communicating that being transparent. And that really does come from I would say, you know, the CEO, all the way down to the frontline workers is important. How do you tell the story of what you believe, as an organisation? And then how do you back it up? You know, certainly, with the focus on diversity, equity and inclusion in recent years, even publishing, hiring statistics, retention statistics, you know, how can you be transparent as an organisation about the things that you care about, you know, have you state that you are, you know, a steward of the environment, like, don't just say that show your customers how you're doing it? How many trees are you're planting? What's your carbon offset policy? Right, and, and I think that all of those things combined can really help to build trust.
Eric: Sounds like this might be a perfect segue into the third topic we wanted to talk about, which is the rebrands that you lead for WGBH and your thoughts on kind of rebranding and building a modern, effective brand in general. So do you want to talk about that a little bit?
Tina: Sure. I arrived at GBH a little less than three years ago and was I was I'm the first chief marketing officer here, which I think just says a lot about how much the world is changed. Jane right the media landscape is becoming much more fragmented. And this organisation needed a strategy and a dedicated effort to ensure that we are connecting with our target audiences. And as I looked at the research and and the data and, you know, tried to figure out who we want to be as an organisation how we wanted to show up as a brand, it was clear that we were our name, which was WGBH was really tied to broadcast the W and WGBH was a product of our broadcast licence. So the the FCC would give broadcast licences east of the Mississippi, IW, and west of the Mississippi would get a K. And then the last three letters of that broadcast construct, we're usually related to place. So GBH stands for Great Blue Hill, which is the place where our broadcast tower is. So I thought, huh, that's really interesting. Here we are a 70 year old, beloved legacy brand based on this broadcasting construct. And yet, we are available for streaming audio, video web, you know, we're a completely digital organisation. Now, more than half of our impressions are digital. So why are we showing up like a legacy broadcast brand, so we did decide to drop the W. And just keep GBH it also, we changed our colours to make it more visible and to pop on, on small screens, and in a social scroll. Our old colour were purple. Now, our old colour was a sort of blue, more of a corporate blue. And, you know, we also want to be portrayed this sort of vibrant, friendly energy. And purple also helped us do that. So we we, so we, we did more than just drop the W and change our colour, though, you know, we also decided that, from the look and feel of the logo itself, that there were some things that the old logo had going for it, we have this funky drop shadow that was unique. We decided to keep that because we wanted to continue that sense of trust and continuity, we wanted people to know, yes, this is that GBH, you've known your whole life. And that you've seen at the end of Arthur, or zoom, or masterpiece. And, you know, but we're evolving. So it was important for us to send that message that we are evolving. And for our brand refresh launch campaign, we added the tagline beyond broadcast. So you know, while the bulk of our audience is still tuning in, on traditional broadcast channels, the opportunity for us really is and ensuring that people know, we're available in other places as well.
Eric: I just realised I've been saying it wrong. This whole time. It's just so ingrained in me growing up drop. Totally makes sense.
Tina: It's okay, because, I mean, technically, our broadcast licence still has the W in it. And on radio, we still have to say WGBH every hour, then that's okay.
Eric: It's kind of like radio. Yeah, yeah.
Eric: But you know, people who have known our brand for a long time have called us GBH forever, because it's just like, it's the local vernacular, right? It's the friendly, this is a brand I know, it's like saying coke instead of Coca Cola. And we often set a Commonwealth Avenue.
Eric: Yep. Yeah. I want to ask a follow up question to that, which is, you know, I think for any CMO, or really any marketer, but increasingly, as you get more senior, a lot of the role is about getting people behind what you want to do. And so particularly in an organisation where there wasn't a CMO before, I'm curious how, you know, I'm guessing you probably wouldn't have taken the role if there wasn't some confidence that there was a real mandate to do marketing and branding differently. But how hard was it? Or how did you approach kind of the internal component of doing that rebrand getting stakeholders on board, and not just the kind of getting approval for things but actually getting people excited and fired up and bought into and engaged with what you were trying to do?
Tina: It took a long time to first decide whether this was even a road we should go down. You know, I didn't want to be that cmo came in and change a legacy, a beloved legacy brand. But when we looked at the data and sort of came up with the idea, we worked with an outside agency called Minelli. and they work great. We thought there's no way we can even unseen this, we have to change our name now, right? It makes perfect sense. We took about six months to methodically build the case, share the case, get feedback, we had a very thorough process with internal stakeholders, checking in with key external stakeholders to make sure that, you know, this made sense that they were comfortable with it, and that they were actually excited about it. And the across the board response was overwhelmingly positive. And of course, we could not have done this without the approval of, you know, senior leadership, the CEO, the CFO, our board, etc. So they were ecstatic. And they understood that this was tied to the strategy of the organisation moving forward, it wasn't just an aesthetic change, or something meant to show we have a new owner, this was very much the core of the strategy for this organisation. So, you know, I think that it's a good lesson, no matter what you're trying to change, you know, meeting with people in groups of 3, 5, 10 and sometimes 50. You know, you kind of have to build your way up to that. And getting people excited and read in is so important, because if we had just like flipped a switch one day and dumped this brand on 900 employees, that GBH they would have said, like, what is this? What happened to this thing that I loved, you know, so making the case, bringing them along? The sort of what change management is all about?
Eric: Amazing
Tina: And of course, we had to bring our members, our audiences around as well. And there was, that's where the campaign comes in making sure it's easily digestible.
Eric: Well, I'm gonna ask, I'll ask my parents and I'll ask my in-laws. When we get back about the brand change, see what they think a very opinionated focus group before they are. Cool. Well, I think that's a good place to wrap it. Tina, is there any anything else you want to share? Or any? If people want to get in touch or find out more about what you're doing? Where do you want to send them?
Tina: Well, people can certainly email me tina_cassidy@wgbh.org Or you can follow our our social handles if you're more interested in the brand. And that is that @GBH
Eric: I'l definitely going to follow you on TikTok. Sure, okay, great. All right, Tina, thank you so much for doing this. It was great to have this chat and appreciate you making the time.
Tina: Thank you, too. It was a pleasure.
Eric: Scratch is a production of rival. We are a marketing innovation consultancy that helps businesses develop strategies and capabilities to grow faster. If you want to learn more about us check out we are rivals.com If you want to connect with me, email me at Eric at we are rivals.com or find me on LinkedIn. If you enjoyed today's show, please subscribe, share with anyone you think might enjoy it. And please do leave us a review. Thanks for listening and see you next week.
