Join us for another insightful episode of Scratch, hosted by Eric Fulwiler, with special guest Mark Kirkham, the CMO of PepsiCo International Beverages. PepsiCo is an iconic brand, recognized globally for its diverse portfolio and commitment to societal impact. Mark shares his wealth of marketing knowledge on building a brand that goes beyond just products and stands for a purpose that resonates with its consumers. He emphasizes the importance of being relevant, differentiating your brand, and aligning your actions with your brand's broader mission.
Mark also talks about the strategic marketing choices brands need to make to establish themselves as 'iconic', the balance between global scale and local relevance, and how to prioritize in a world filled with marketing opportunities. He underscores the importance of understanding your consumers, learning from failures, and always questioning your brand's relevance to your audience. This episode is packed with invaluable insights into PepsiCo's mission to connect with its consumers on a deeper level. The discussion highlights the significance of purpose-driven branding, customer understanding, and the right cultural fit in the dynamic landscape of marketing consumer goods. Be sure to tune in and learn from one of the best in the business!
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Chapters:
[03:57] Intro
[05:40] What is the one challenger brand you’re passionate about?
[09:08] How important is authenticity for challenger brands?
[14:25] How does a day look in the life of the CMO of Pepsico?
[17:49] How do you get the insight onto ‘what you need to do’ to be relevant and iconic?
[21:09] How do you use ‘purpose’ in your role as a CMO of so many brands?
[29:30] How do you actually become iconic?
[33:30] Do you have a framework to split investment between splitting things that are actually going to work, and innovating and trying out new things?
[39:20] Driving global scale and local relevance at the same time
[40:50] If you left Pepsi tomorrow, and started your own company, what would you do in the first 30 days to build an iconic brand from scratch?
[43:40] Lightning Round
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"Scratch" is a production of Rival, a marketing consultancy and technology company that builds challenger brands, strategies, and capabilities to change categories.
In every episode Eric interviews the CMO of some of the worlds biggest or fastest-growing brands, exploring their innovative marketing strategies that challenge established incumbents. Immerse yourself in the world of challenger brands and learn valuable marketing lessons from industry experts, as you discover their secrets to success.
Find Mark on Linkedin.
Find Rival online at www.wearerival.com, LinkedIn, Twitter.
Watch the video version of this Podcast on YouTube.
Find Eric on LinkedIn and tweet him @efulwiler.
Say hi at media@wearerival.com, we’d love to hear from you.
Transcript
Eric: Hey everyone, before we get to today's episode, I wanted to share what I think is a pretty exciting announcement, we are opening up our rival amp community. So some of you listening have been part of AMP. From the beginning of the company, it has been our small, very small friends and family community around rival where we post updates asked for feedback, kind of share what's going on in the business. But actually, we think there's a lot more potential as we've grown as our community has grown, as we've met more of you to actually build and scale a proper community within rival amps. So what rival amp is going to be is it's going to be a community for challenger marketers on WhatsApp, we're going to share ideas and observations from the Challenger marketing world that we see and ask everyone to contribute to that share about challenger brands, marketing, news, industry events, job opportunities, ask for feedback, and input use each other as a sounding board, we think it's going to be really great. So if you are interested in joining in, or not already a member, please either reach out to me, if you know me, or go on over to our website, wearerival.com And you can apply from there, this is free. But we do want to make sure that we're adding people that are really interested and can really add value. That's it onto the episode.
Mark: I think the hardest part on a day in day job, but it's is is you know is when you build your teams, making sure that they have enough rope to to build it their way, you know, and allow them to kind of do what you got to do when you are in that job. But equally, at the same time, you have to take all the experience that you've learned and built from and helped shape the kind of the future of these brands. So it's I mean, I have an amazing job. I'm really, you know, I love the job. I love the challenge. But I what I love about it is that I'm lucky enough to have taken all the experiences of the past and apply it to my day to day. And I think that's the important thing, you know, you take the opportunity to help shape the strategy, you know, guide where the vision is and work with your your businesses around the world to kind of say, Hey, this is where we want to go with our portfolio in our brands.
And I think that's the important thing, you know, you take the opportunity to help shape the strategy, you know, guide where the vision is and work with your your businesses around the world to kind of say, Hey, this is where we want to go with our portfolio in our brands. So it's a busy job.
Eric: I'm Eric Fulwiler. And this is scratch, bringing you marketing lessons from the leading brands and brands rewriting the rulebook from scratch for the world of today.
I'm Eric Fulwiler. And this is scratch, bringing you marketing lessons from the leading brands and brands rewriting the rulebook from scratch for the world of today.
Hey everyone, my guest today Mark Kirkham, the CMO of PepsiCo international beverages he's responsible for the creative innovation and marketing strategy across brands such as Pepsi, seven, opera, Rinda, rock star energy, Mountain Dew, Gatorade, Aquafina, and bubbly. Mark has spent 12 years at PepsiCo leading a variety of different marketing functions. And prior to that he was at Procter and Gamble where he managed and innovated the Duracell brand. In today's episode, we're talking about what it takes to build and maintain an iconic brand, in an incredibly competitive and crowded environment with a particular focus on choosing the right channels, mediums and cultural moments to drive relevancy. So obviously, you know, Mark and some of these brands, big global
brands and businesses already, but I really think and Mark touches on this in terms of some challenges within the category and challengers, within the PepsiCo portfolio, a lot of these principles and a lot of the frameworks and just mindset that he talks to, I really think is relevant to anyone at any stage and actually within any category as well. The focus on understanding your customer and the culture around them. And really making sure that you have that relevance and authenticity as a brand before you and in every way that you go to market. So I really think there's something for everyone in this conversation. It's a bit of a long one. But you know, there's so much good stuff in here. So I really think you're going to enjoy it. Without further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Mark Kirkham of PepsiCo.
Eric: Hey, Mark, how you doing?
Mark: Good, man. How are you?
Eric: Good to see you. I am good. It's really good to have you on the show. It's really good to see you again. Obviously, we spent a little bit of time together when I was at Vayner, which was a while ago, but it's great to reconnect. And I'm really looking forward to digging into the conversation that we have today.
Mark:Very good. Now excited to do well, so great to see you and having chat.
EricL Awesome. And for the people that are listening in now watching mark is sitting in front of a a pretty epic is that a mural a picture of like Messi rising from now it's actually
Mark: it's a mural of it's in one of our conference rooms here. It's an ad we created God it's got to be eight years ago, nine years ago, it was called don't go down. And it was basically the story of how you know through all of his trials and tribulations on the pitch, you know, you can't get Leo down and clearly, you know, last fall he proved to the world who in my opinion is the goat but I think that debate will always live on But Jay Yeah, no, it's it's
Eric: Awesome. And for the people that are listening in now watching mark is sitting in front of a a pretty epic is that a mural a picture of like Messi rising from now it's actually it's a mural of it's in one of our conference rooms here.
Mark: It's an ad we created God it's got to be eight years ago, nine years ago, it was called don't go down. And it was basically the story of how you know through all of his trials and tribulations on the pitch, you know, you can't get Leo down and clearly, you know, last fall he proved to the world who in my opinion is the goat but I think that debate will always live on But Jay Yeah, no, it's it's
It's nice to work on brands where you can have these amazing murals to celebrate the work that you've even that you've done. So I unfortunately didn't work on this one, but the team did did an awesome job. So love it.
Eric: Alright, well, we'll see if we can find a link to the ad to include in the show notes. And yeah, I know, we're gonna get into it. But I mean, it must be. It must be amazing. But also, I'm sure there's just a lot to unpack working in a business and at a brand that has this scale, and has these ambassadors and assets that you can pull from. Because of course, there's a lot to work with, but also a lot of pressure on just, you know, you know, these brands that you're overseeing, but we will get to that I'm getting ahead of myself. So first question that we ask, every guest has a bit of an icebreaker, what is one challenge or brand that you're passionate about right now? And it can't be one of your own?
Mark: It's a tough question, but thought about it. And I'm actually going to give some props to a very good friend of mine, Kristin Patrick and the team at Claire's.
Look, I'm a dad of two girls and when they were younger, I literally would do everything I could to run pass those stores because it was going to cost me like 50 bucks on her bucks on their buy two get one free and you buy 10 and get 20 in and it was it was a brand that just felt like you know, a retail shop that you know was a mall anchor everyone had one didn't have a lot of distinctiveness other than his promotions. And what Crusader the team had done is awesome. They've they've disrupted the retail environment through culture. You know, they've leveraged you know, gaming and Roblox to build experiences and retail environments. They're doing influencer work with like six year old influencers, you know, it's and they've reframed what this brand means in a cultural context, which if you asked me, would that even be possible five years ago? I'd say? Absolutely not. But it took it took a little bit of courage. Some really smart people, and it took be willing to take some risks. And yeah, I fully love what they're doing and to be recognised for it. So hats off to Kp and the team.
Eric: Well, if the check that out, I think it's always you know, it's it's fascinating watching challenger brands that are startups that are disruptors that are new to a category, but when you can take an incumbent, particularly one that's maybe fallen off a little bit doesn't have the credibility inequity there. And you actually have to build from a negative to do that. One of one of the brands that we love to talk about and is kind of a running joke within our CMO, WhatsApp community is Crocs and I don't know if you've been watching what they've been doing. But a very similar thing, you know, was like hot 20 years ago, was very Nat and was kind of a joke for a while to be honest, apart from like, specific circles, like chefs and things like that. But through understanding what are the drivers of culture and doing interesting, creative, sometimes really weird collaborations with, you know, those those centres of culture, those influencers Sure, but the people that are really crafting culture for the audience, that crafts culture, you know, they've been able to actually make stage a comeback now, and they're becoming cool again, at least I think so.
Mark: No, I hear you. And yes, I see a lot of chefs and back of the house people wearing crocs, but actually, you know, it's that it's that same it's so easy for brands to be pigeonholed based on their legacy. And their their history, it almost anchors them. And I agree with you it to be a challenger when you got a lot of baggage is is a heck of a lot harder. You know, when you're a challenger, and you're just a number two, still in the same relative context, it's a different game. We deal with that across some of our brands. But But yeah, I think I think, I think what Claire is doing what crocs doing, when a lot of startups do and it's it's almost in their DNA, they have to do it. It's, it's, it's really interesting, it's really challenging. And as a marketer, you kind of enjoy watching their work. It is, it's, it's sometimes it challenges us to push ourselves a little bit further, especially those of us who've grown up in big CPG land.
Eric: So yeah, fascinating. You know, we talk about these principles of building successful challenger brand and authenticity is a big one. And I think oftentimes, you know, it all starts with relevance. So that's something that we're going to talk about today, when it comes to how do you build an iconic brand, it has to start with relevance. But a lot of people, particularly challengers, then skip to differentiation. How do we shake things up? How do we kind of be the contrarian? How do we do things differently, but actually, the step in the middle that's so important is authenticity. If you start coming out for something that you can't back up, that you can actually deliver, whether it's through the brand or the product experience, that disconnect, particularly today's modern consumer, you know, that's a massive risk and vulnerability for your business. So that authenticity piece, I think, I think he touched on it. And it's really important, particularly when you're thinking about how challenger brands can scale to become successful within a category.
Eric: Yeah,I think look, I think it all comes down to relevance and relevance is is very much tied to authenticity. And being relevant, particularly amongst younger consumers, Gen Z, alphas, whatever you want to call my kids, I think you really need to step back and say, Well, what is it about your brand, your category, your benefit, that is relevant in their lives today. And it might be incredibly different from what was relevant in your own life, or in the category context that that other generations grew up in. And relevance in this context, particularly with younger consumers today, a lot of it is anchored in authenticity, and authenticity, then gets anchored in purpose and purpose and gets anchored in broader people and planet, you know, theory challenges and issues that we all face. And, and so, to me, how do you navigate that starts with what is your purpose, you know, what is your purpose as a product as a category as a brand, and, and ensuring that you you stay rooted in who you are, but authentically, drive relevance drive relationships, create new connections with new consumers, through your brands, sometimes in different ways. Now, as a marketer, it could be through a channel, as, as someone who makes drinks, it could be through product innovation. And as a brand, it could be how we evolve our narrative. You know, if you think about Gatorade, for example, you know, in many parts of the world sports drinks and growing up with sports drinks, the way I did what you did, or others, you know, it was you, if I showed up at the pitch, and didn't have my Gatorade, it's like, I didn't bring my boots. You know, I was like I wasn't prepared to play. But if you go to other parts of the world, where you didn't grow up with that, that context isn't there. So how do you make a brand that has the stature and all of this goodness from its history, relevant, so you have to pivot, you have to establish a different narrative for those consumers. And a lot of it is you're almost starting from scratch. And I think that's one of the beauties of as we've expanded the Gatorade business around the world. We were literally building a brand, in some cases, a category differently, you know, some parts of world war established, like Latin America, Asia, it's a brand new space for many new brands, even Europe, where sports drinks really aren't a big thing. You know, we have to think about how do we establish the category differently? And how do we bring relevance of the sports drink category, or the soft drink category? or new formats, like Soda Stream into their mindset? And so what do they care about? What does your brand deliver that unique and different. And I think that's where you get into this debate between distinction and relevance, it is possible to do both. But the moment you focus on distinction, and it's not relevant to who you are, you then are inauthentic. And that, to me, is is a little bit of a balancing act. And I think that's where some brands fall down.
Eric: And I think it's as a constant challenge you have to ask yourself is how to become more relevant to these consumers? How do we ensure that my products and my brand are relevant? And how do I do it in an authentic way, and if you can check the box on all this, then I think you're actually in a really good place. But the moment you steer a little bit off current course, you risk being inauthentic, and therefore potentially never being relevant. And I think that's the kind of thing and it follows a lot of the cases in things like greenwashing, and it's cause greenwashing right of brands who then stop talking about the good things they're doing, because they're worried. I think that's, that's going to be a challenge. But it is, it is kind of it is ultimately about being relevant to today's consumer and to new consumers, as we look to grow categories. The way that I think about it, and the way that we depict it, like literally thinking of a slide that we have in, you know, for the consulting and brand strategy work that we do. That's a pyramid. And at the bottom of that pyramid, it's five principles, but the bottom is relevance. And so if, you know, I think the metaphor is apt if the foundation is not there, the rest of it crumbles. So there are other pieces that you need to be a successful challenger brand. But relevance absolutely needs to be there. So I think that's a great segue to get into the meat of the conversation, talking about what it means to be an iconic brand. But before we do, I want to take a quick little detour, because I'm just very curious, CMO of PepsiCo, international beverages. What is the day in the life look like? I'm sure there's no two days that are the same but such a broad remit so many brands under your portfolio. You know, what do you what what do you typically doing day in and day out and week in and week out?
Mark: I'd like to say I'm doing a lot of all the jobs I've done over the last 12 or 13 years of PepsiCo and I've been I've been really lucky to have had the chance to work pretty much across every brand in our beverage portfolio. And now as the CMO for international I get to look at each of those brands with a whole different perspective. You know, when you're owning a brand operating a brand, you get real into the details. And then when you get to, you know, my point, my career, I get to look at, well, what role are they all play, you know, all the things that I did whether it was when I was running global Pepsi or Gatorade and energy or, or working on Mountain Dew 1015 years ago, in, in really scaling it into new markets, you know, my job was different. But actually, if I look at it today, the sum of those experiences is what is created, who I am today as a marketer, who I am as a CMO for international, and actually how I can relate to the challenges and opportunities in the business. So I think the hardest part on a day in day job, but it's is, is, you know, is when you build your teams, making sure that they have enough rope, to build it their way, you know, and allow them to kind of do what you got to do when you were in that job. But equally, at the same time, you have to take all the experience that you've learned and built from and helped shape the kind of the future of these brands. So it's, I mean, I have an amazing job, I'm really, you know, I love the job, I love the challenge. But I what I love about it is that I'm lucky enough to have taken all the experiences of the past and apply it to my day to day. And I think that's the important thing, you know, you take the opportunity to help shape the strategy, you know, guide where the vision is, and work with your your businesses around the world to kind of say, Hey, this is where we want to go with our portfolio in our brands. So it's a busy job, you know, and it's, it's, it's not easy sometimes but, but if you build from your past experiences, and you build this empowering trust amongst your teams, and you also embrace the fact that you know, you have global brands that have to drive to the conversation earlier about relevance, you know, local relevance. It's, it's a, it's a, it's a fascinating challenge. It's not easy. But it's a really, really exciting place to be. And, you know, when I don't know, when I wake up in the morning, I know I got a lot to do. But I'm excited to do it every day. And now as the CMO for international I get to look at each of those brands with a whole different perspective. You know, when you're owning a brand operating a brand, you get real into the details. And then when you get to, you know, my point, my career, I get to look at, well, what role are they all play, you know, all the things that I did whether it was when I was running global Pepsi or Gatorade and energy or, or working on Mountain Dew 1015 years ago, in, in really scaling it into new markets, you know, my job was different. But actually, if I look at it today, the sum of those experiences is what is created, who I am today as a marketer, who I am as a CMO for international, and actually how I can relate to the challenges and opportunities in the business. So I think the hardest part on a day in day job, but it's is, is, you know, is when you build your teams, making sure that they have enough rope, to build it their way, you know, and allow them to kind of do what you got to do when you were in that job. But equally, at the same time, you have to take all the experience that you've learned and built from and helped shape the kind of the future of these brands. So it's, I mean, I have an amazing job, I'm really, you know, I love the job, I love the challenge. But I what I love about it is that I'm lucky enough to have taken all the experiences of the past and apply it to my day to day. And I think that's the important thing, you know, you take the opportunity to help shape the strategy, you know, guide where the vision is, and work with your your businesses around the world to kind of say, Hey, this is where we want to go with our portfolio in our brands. So it's a busy job, you know, and it's, it's, it's not easy sometimes but, but if you build from your past experiences, and you build this empowering trust amongst your teams, and you also embrace the fact that you know, you have global brands that have to drive to the conversation earlier about relevance, you know, local relevance. It's, it's a, it's a, it's a fascinating challenge. It's not easy. But it's a really, really exciting place to be. And, you know, when I don't know, when I wake up in the morning, I know I got a lot to do. But I'm excited to do it every day.
Eric: It's all anyone can hope for right? So we had our prep call a couple weeks back, and we landed on and you suggested this topic of how to build an iconic brand. And I love it because we actually haven't talked about it before. But it is a lot of what everybody is striving towards. If you're a Pepsi, if you're a liquid death, if you're a startup that's just launching next month. And one of the things that we talked about in that conversation is I could ask you, how do you define an iconic brands, we could look up how the marketing community defines an iconic brand. You could list iconic brands, but actually, to our conversation about relevance. The thing that matters most is understanding what an iconic brand means to your consumer. So why don't we start there? How do you for PepsiCo beverages? How do you get that understanding that insight into the consumers you're trying to reach of what what you need to do to be relevant to them in order to have a chance to build an iconic brand in their world?
Mark: It's a great question. And honestly, there's there's probably no one answer, but I'll give you a perspective of how I look at it, how I believe we look at it at PepsiCo, I think the first thing is, what defines an iconic brand today, especially amongst younger consumers, is different than what defines iconic in the past. It doesn't mean that the brand is not iconic. It just means to your point in the eyes of that consumer, and how they're influenced by different mediums, culture, society, the challenges that we face in the world. Those views define what brands they put on what pedicels If you look at the actual definition of the word iconic, it goes back to how people would essentially define an icon. It's a visual representation of icon, which actually goes all the way back to defining how a statue looked. Right. So. So if you put it on that perspective, and icon is how the consumer sees it. Now, I'm lucky. And I truly believe, you know, many of our brands are truly iconic. But if we want them to stay iconic, we need to evolve, how we shape that vision, how we bring that image to life to the consumer. And a lot of that comes down to the evolution of marketing, you know, how we use channels differently, how we use data differently, how we embrace consumer trends and some of the headwinds we face. And we take them on in a responsible way, how we build purpose that authentically connects to these new consumers and put them into the conversation versus in the old days that we just told them what we were about, you know, I It sounds some, like, simple one on one kind of marketing, you know, how you need to, you know, establish a connection with a consumer. But it's so much more fundamentally different to We say what defines an icon in the past versus the icons today, you know, the icon set today may not have been an icon two years ago, versus 20 years ago, that icon that you would identify whether it's an actor or a brand, or, or anything within an industry has probably been doing it the same way, for 20 or 30 years. So I think that's the big learning is to define an icon today or to remain relevant and therefore iconic, we need to adapt. So for us as brands, it's how we communicate to consumers, how we leverage data, how we evolve our products, how we really build authentic, purposeful brands and experiences. That is what's going to essentially establish us as an icon in the eyes of these new consumers.
Eric: So I don't think we can have a conversation about building modern day iconic brands without talking about brand purpose. And you brought this up, you know, earlier, and there's all the stats, all the research out there about how purpose is a key driver for today's consumer, and a big factor in shifting perception and purchase behaviour in all categories. But I think there's a lot that's been going on within the beverage category for sure. How does purpose fit into your strategy? I know there's a couple of initiatives that you've launched and are a part of PepsiCo. But if we take a step back, and everybody's thinking about brand purpose, how are you approaching that in your role? And for the PepsiCo beverages portfolio?
Mark: No, I think you said it, right. I mean, it is essential to any brand today to at least know and establish what its purpose is. I think the challenge is a purpose needs to lead to something bigger when you're in a big corporate environment or within within your category. I think some of the biggest mistakes that have been made in our industry are where people did purpose for purpose, it were all the right intent, but perhaps the wrong execution. And there's examples across categories and brands. And, and there's a lot of learning to be had as marketers in that space. For us, you know, in for me as as both a marketer but but as as part of PepsiCo, it has to start with what does the company stand for? You know, what is the purpose of PepsiCo, we have this amazing platform. And I say this because it's not just a corporate platform for communication. It's actually since who we are, it's how we're measured. It's, it's in our it's in our metrics. It's called PepsiCo positive. And PepsiCo positive, you know, in a, in a company like ours, that, you know, 80 billion plus with, you know, 300,000 plus employees, you can't just have a corporate mission statement without embedding that into how you operate, and therefore, how your brands reflect both the corporate mission and vision, which for us is anchored in PepsiCo positive to what your brand stands for, and what impact you are going to have as a brand on kind of the broader good, right, so So if I give you example, when we look at PepsiCo positive, we look at the value chain, you know, in terms of how we operate, and that involves everything from human and people sustainability, you look at the positive choices, which is very much about portfolio. And ultimately, you look at the positive impact that you as a company make, and that from everything from your employees, to your investors, to your customers alike. And for us, we have a tonnes of commitments. And the important thing is very open and transparent commitment. So we as a company have to do. And what's important is that you translate those commitments into what our brands are doing, and ultimately what I'm doing in my job, and therefore choosing which role my brands can play, you know, clearly a brand like Pepsi, which is a large global brand, you know, we have to address some of the challenges in plastic and some of the challenges and sugars. And what makes me proud of what we do is, you know, we do it very authentically in terms of how we build a non sugar business, and how we communicate the benefits of, of actually reuse and recycle, and ultimately, creating a world where plastic isn't waste. I mean, the ultimate goal is is plastic is actually a good thing. Waste, it's the bad. So what role do I have to play as a brand to actually encourage people to reuse and recycle and use new formats? And then also, in our portfolios, we evolve? How am I reducing sugar? How am I you know, having a more positive effect on the overall environment through some of the commitments we make and some of the actions we're taking on reducing greenhouse gas. And then that please, all the way out not just from a corporate standpoint of how we work with partners. We have an initiative with UEFA, for example, which is all about getting to zero waste at their events. And in partnering with them and actually working together as a partner of mass sporting platform, but also having having a purpose element to it that's truly authentic, where they is an event organiser nizer. And we as a supplier and we as a brand builder can actually make an impact. And so you have to take everything from a corporate vision mission, all the way down to The goals and objectives that we as employees have and actually makes us feel good about being part of this company. And then extending that into the partnerships and the collaborations we make. And all of that you have to do in a very focused way. And back to the original comment is that I think that's one of the key points that we're on in the journey, which is, how do we make it relevant for Pepsi to talk about the things that matter for the consumers of soft drinks? Obviously, focusing on issues like plastics and sugar, you know, for brands like lates, how do we look at the impact of farming? You know, for a brand like SodaStream SodaStream, in itself is fundamentally a brand that has always been focused on reducing plastic waste, and how do we bring new experiences to consumers? And then ultimately, you look at Gatorade. Gatorade has a people element where we're really focusing on sport, and healthy lifestyle and grassroots activity. But we've turned that into really authentic stories around how we're elevating women's sport, how we're actually taking, you know, we use the Gatorade bottle you see behind me, that's, that's one of the that's been around forever. We were one of the first beyond the bottle products where you were using powders, and now we have tablets. And so how do you evolve your portfolio in the right context, so that it can truly bring those visions to life. So, I mean, I think the simple way to say it is that purpose needs to have purpose, you know, you need to have a clear tie back to what you're doing as a company, and an authentic role for your brand. And for us, that's about positive choices, and ultimately about positive brands.
Eric: I really liked that, quote, that soundbite of purpose needs to have purpose have heard something similar said in different ways. But I really liked how that's packaged up. The thing you touched on something quickly at the end that I just want to draw out, because it's been on my mind, we're launching this new content series, that's challenger brand breakdowns. So we're looking at a bunch of different challenger brands and kind of looking at what they've done differently. And one of the things that I've kind of honed in on with a few of them, including crocs, actually, and also all a pop in your category as well, is that a lot of what they're doing with the marketing function is helping to drive product innovation, as well. So the thing with crocs is not just these collaborations that they're doing in the communication that they're bringing to market. It's also how they've evolved the product, and innovated the product and the role that marketing has within that. So just what you were saying about the product innovation around Gatorade, and I'm sure across the rest of the portfolio. I just wanted to call that out. Because I think that's an important thing to think about marketing as an innovation function. Because product is a big part of what is going to make the brand's iconic as well as marketing, of course.
Mark: Yeah, and when you say product, and I would take innovation broader, it's its product, it's package. It's experience, right? So if you look at beverages product, it's how do you use our pet? How do you reduce sugar? How do you you know, reduce the landfill waste that happens in all over the world. And it's a challenge we must address, you know, on packaging, it's obviously tied to the same but what new forms, you know, what new, what didn't the new ways to recycle and working with the industries to help actually drive recycling. And then you talk about experience. And we do this project on lays called lays replay. And we actually use recycled Chris bags to actually lay the foundation for football pitches, which we build in, you know, underserved communities to help drive sport. And then you bring Gatorade along and you're actually helping them kind of, you know, hydrate and also perform and fuel athletic achievement. You're doing all these things in the context of a very purposeful experience. And we're doing it in specially in the last year, we tied it to the UCL women's final in Turin in a neighbourhood that was completely underdeveloped. And we did it for an all girls tournament, which had never happened in Italy and all girls 600 Girls from around Italy playing in the tournament, and ultimately going to Paris to see the men's final and seeing the women's final. And third, we did that as a brand. And we brought together the product, the package the experience, and if you if you think about the impact that they have. And for some of these, for some of these athletes, this was the first time they even experienced some of the things, it can actually create lifelong relationships. And that can't go unseen. You nearly talked early about relevance, all of a sudden, we've it may only be 600. But you start to multiply that and you also think about the amplification of what you're doing across your product, your packaging your experience, I think you really can authentically deliver on purpose.
Eric: So so on that because that actually flows nicely into the next chapter of our conversation which is about, well how do you actually become iconic once you have that understanding of what iconic means to your audience, which to your point is constantly evolving. So even if you have it or think you have it at one point in time, you need to be able to evolve as your category in the culture around your consumer does. But once you have that story, how do you decide how, where when to bring that to market? So you mentioned some of these partnerships, I'm sure If there's a bunch of different channels that you're in as PepsiCo, how do you make those decisions? I don't know if there's like a couple principles or frameworks that you use at a higher level that helped to guide those decisions.
Mark: Yeah, no. So we have, we're in the process of kind of finalising and rolling out a framework, which edits principle gets to the some of the points I was making earlier, which is really determining what are the territories that you can really have an impact, whether it's de la, or community, or plastics, or climate or regenerative farming, making sure that you've identified, you know, what is, I think the risk all marketers have is they try to do everything. When we all know, if you try to do everything, you typically don't do anything really that well. So if you can actually identify where your brand, and your product has the biggest challenge and opportunity to have an impact, that's where you should stay focus, then you have to understand in a company like ours, what is the role that the brand plays? You know, are we really going to be the drivers of change? Because it's everything that Brent stands for? Are we going to help influence change? And what what are the commitments that we're willing to make? And what is the culture that we make in doing that, that ultimately helps simplifying in my mind, but also prioritise how you go about it? And then you ask the question about how do you know when you're iconic? Well, I mean, it's like saying, you know, going viral, there's no such thing as going viral, there used to be a time when things were viral. In today's world, it's, it's actually, when is that idea so good that people share it, and people amplify it. And ultimately, what defines whether you're iconic enough, if people say, this brand has established a whole new level of, you know, understanding authenticity, iconicity, and relevance to me, that I would put it at the top of the list, or the top shelf or the top of the pyramid. And I think that to me, is, you know, if you have to make choices on what are the things you need your brands to be known for. And as a marketer, then you got to choose how are the channels and the activities and the traditional things that we do as marketers? How are they going to get me there, you know, doing the same old stuff will not get you the traditional everyday ways of in, particularly in CPG type marketing. If you saw you do, I don't believe you're gonna be iconic in the eyes of consumers of the future. But if you adapt, and authentically bring your brand through the right channels, the right experiences, and also your portfolio being as relevant, then I think, yeah, you're gonna continue to be in the case of our brands, iconic, but actually, you're going to establish an even new sense of what it means to be iconic. And you're going to allow that to carry into the next generation, and hopefully, the new generation after that. And I think, look, as a dad of, you know, two teenage girls, you know, it's important for me to understand what brands they care about, What brands do they consider iconic? And one of the attributes and how are they connecting with my kids, so that I make sure that my brands are relevantly and authentically doing the same? So So I think it's a long way to get to the answer to your question, but I think there's no one answer. But I do think you got to take these steps, prioritise, focus on where you can really have impact, and then do the things that in today's world or amongst that consumer, is going to allow them to put you at the pedestal and ultimately being you is iconic brand.
Eric: And do you have any type of framework or approach that you take to splitting your focus or investment into some things that you know are going to work and some things that are maybe more innovative? Because I think, you know, one of the risks of any business, to be honest, but particularly an incumbent is that you're only focused on okay, I know this is going to work, therefore, I'm going to invest in this channel. Do you have like a 70/20/10 framework or some way that you think about innovation when it comes to bringing these brands to market?
Eric: Yeah, I think frameworks like 70/20/10 are a good example of in a simple way, how do you need to prioritise and, and whether it's exactly a 70/20/10 or some other model or, you know, you know, the Google and Microsoft models about allowing people to do their pet projects. There is an element of you have to have intent. And you have to have prioritised this concept of taking some risks, experimenting, doing things a little bit differently. And I think it's different for every brand. I think the principle of 7020 10 where the average things out is probably right. But actually, some brands have to be 10 2070 You know, in the sense of where they focus their investment, you know, the example I gave earlier about challenger brands, like Claire's if Claire's only does 7020 10, and only puts 10% of their focus on engaging new consumers in new ways. They They're not going to be as relevant, they had to probably swing the needle a lot further crocks probably had to swing a lot further. But when you're in a bigger brand in a more traditional category or your leading position in the category, you might have to only carve out a smaller percentage. But what's the most important is that you understand what your role is, as a brand, and how you are going to make a difference in that 10. Or that 20. Or in some cases that 70. So we don't have a set number, I think that number gets defined on what is your brand role. And ultimately, what is the business and and consumer impact you want to have with what you're doing. And I think if you establish that you have clear focus on key areas of impact and you want to make, then yeah, then you can invest accordingly. And for brands that are more focused on purpose, which is the core of what they do, and what their product is how they stand for, it's going to be you know, it could be the 70 of their investment, where other brands who have much more scale and have a broader story to tell, it might be less, they might be the 20 year in some cases, the 10 and then applies to how you spend media, to how you develop innovation, to the type of partnerships you develop.
Eric: So I'd be curious, is there an example within your portfolio that you can point to as a brand that you are right now building to become iconic, because of course, there's the Pepsi, there's the Gatorade, there's these global iconic brands that I'm sure you're continuing to evolve at need to stay on top of being iconic. But is there an example that you can speak to that that is actually like a work in progress right now, where you're trying to accomplish this and apply these learnings and perspectives?
Mark: Yeah, I'll give you I'll give you a great little brand that most people don't know, that's been around 20 years, but it's one of the fastest brands and report fastest growing brands in our portfolio, that's called sting. It's an energy drink that literally started in Vietnam 20 years ago has been very successful in India and Pakistan and Egypt. But what's amazing about this brand, it's it's not a traditional energy drink, it's it's an energy drink that is established in, in many cases in Vietnam with the highest penetrated categories, you know, in the world, it's a 40% penetration of energy drinks in, in Vietnam, but it carved out a really unique proposition, both in terms of the brand expression, it literally had one SKU one flavour and it just kept growing. What I love about what we've done over the past few years, and I have to give all the credit to the local teams who have really just embraced this brand and made it their own is the cultural relevance, and the very specific channel and call it market development work that they do to launch this brand. Getting the right price point, you know, they've done great work in reducing sugar and kind of making this product even better for you. And even though it's an energy drink, it's it, you know, you're coming into the market with a different proposition than it was, you know, 1520 years ago. They're bringing really local storytelling tied to local culture, they're taking, you know, energy is one of the most important needs, and we saw this particularly over the pandemic, that any consumer has, but how you deliver energy, and the cultural context of how you deliver energy. And some of the work the team in India has done, for example, tying it back to Indian culture, and the spirit of energy, and the kind of unique ties to Indian culture, Bollywood movies, and just really making it their own, I think that will allow sting, which you know, is literally one of our fastest growing brands in our entire portfolio of the world. To be an iconic brand of the future, it's already an icon in the eyes of certain markets. I mean, it's it's the leading beverage with in, in Cambodia, for example of all beverages, our portfolio and others. And it's one of the fastest growing and some other parts of world. And I think the other thing that's important is, a lot of these things happen outside the US. And I think that's another shift that we've seen in our careers is like some of the best innovations and ideas are coming from different markets around the world. And they're they're taking this ability to scale global and regional brands, but do it in a locally relevant way. And ultimately, is someone in my role, whose job is to say, I'm responsible for brands internationally, I have to find that balance. And I think that's the important thing. How do you drive global scale of local relevance, and to be iconic for some of these local brands is, Hey, I gotta build this really cool local expression, this local idea. And then my job is how do I grow that? How do we expand that? And so that's to me, what, what makes these kind of, I'd say fledgling or younger, iconic brands really exciting to watch grow and to nurture and also it's a great learning for the big iconic for It's like the Pepsi's in the gator, it's because then we can say, well, how? How do we just continue to evolve what we're doing and look to the smaller brands and look to other categories to inspire us.
Eric: There's a whole second episode we're gonna have to do at some point about how you drive, you know, product and also brand innovation within incumbent within incumbent organisations and whether you start your own thing or you acquire and how you take learnings from these challenges and bring them into the organisation. I'm so fascinated by that. But of course, we don't have time today, I have one curveball question for you, before we go to the Lightning Rounds. I'd be curious a lot of what we've talked about, you know, you sitting in your seat at PepsiCo, you have a lot of resources to draw on, to be able to do this team agency budget scale of insights around the world, etc. If you left tomorrow, and went to start SHM, Pepsi, or she made a raid something from scratch in this category, the, you know, strategic and the strategic pillars and principles that we've talked about today, first 30 days, in that new role tactically, what do you do, to try to go get that understanding of the audience, and then figure out how you start building a new iconic brand from scratch.
Mark: Here's the crazy part. And this is where the Cutler's of the world got it right. You start with the simple basics. I don't care if you're a startup, if you don't start with understanding your consumer and your customer in your category or context, you're never going to be successful, you could get lucky, don't get me wrong, there are a lot of brands who just come up with a unique, you know, utility or come up with a unique idea. But actually, if I were to start a company today, and I wanted to go into my category, or go into new space, I would absolutely focus on the customer and the consumer first, I wouldn't even probably focus on the competitive set. Because if you focus on the customer, you know your retailers and otherwise, and then the channels that they're shopping in, and then you figure out the consumer needs that are either not or are being met, or you can do it differently, or you can do it cheaper whenever the example is, you have to do that right away. And then I think the other thing is, when you're building a company or starting a company, or joining a new company, there's a C that's not in, you know, the four C's, which is culture. And I would say that's the fifth CD, like they're the fifth Beatle, you know, they're they're understanding the culture of which your consumer lives in. So that's how you engage with them. And, and I would say equally important, the culture of the company you're building, and the brands that you want to be associated with, that is probably just as important. It might not be the first thing but as your understanding your consumer, your customer, your category, your competitors, all the kinds of traditional sees, ask yourself, what kind of culture my building? And what type of culture Am I penetrating? What type of culture do I want to be part of from a consumer sample? Because honestly, if you look at the big iconic brands in the world, they always had a moment and culture that helped take them to the brands they are today. You know, whether it's Michael Jackson for Pepsi, or you know, breaking ground with with Apple, or IBM throwing hammers through screens, you know, there are so many examples throughout history, where those cultural moments actually are helped with divine love. So I think you have to identify that pretty early in your in your journey, because if you don't do that, I think you're going to struggle
Eric: Up for a lightning round before we let you go. Yeah, let's
Mark: Do it. Let's do it.
Eric: What's the biggest win you've had recently?
Mark: Oh, biggest win. And one I'm super proud of his campaign we did last q4 called Pepsi, nutmeg, and three reasons it's the biggest win one, we went back to what we're really good at and back to the conversation connected with culture. You know, we went back to what Pepsi when Pepsi was at its best football ads, we brought the stars we bought the relevance. We bought the the epicness of it. But actually one of the things I'm most proud of is actually we integrated it in today's world. You know, we have Fabrizio Romano actually helping us tell our story. We bought back retro kits and sold them out in less than two minutes. We had Luva, who you may not know is probably the biggest thing in Brazil way above even the followings of Neymar and others. We had actually built in Easter eggs and QR codes that allow you by itself and yet we we may have created a player card that slightly looked like a certain game and put that in and created the you know, some other things in there. We had fun. We use an EA track from Fatboy Slim, which is one of the top trending FIFA tracks even though we have no official relationship with FIFA, just to be clear, and we did it at a time that there happened to be some really big football match happening and we did it in our way. And and I'm really proud of the work the team did and and we've been recognised As for it as the team deserves a hell of a lot of credit for the great work they did, I'm not paying,
Eric: What's the biggest struggle you're dealing with? Currently?
Mark: I think the biggest struggle is is and it's, it sounds a little bit cliche, but it's, it's finding enough time to prioritise the right things. You know, it's that traditional, if I had more time, I would have written you a shorter letter. Mark Twain quote, I think the challenge in marketing today is there's just so much to do. And it's not that you can't do lots of different things. It's finding the time to sit back and think, and say, hey, I want to prioritise only these few things. Sometimes it's more about what you don't do that wouldn't do. You know, that's one of the you know, we like to focus on the three big rocks principle, you know, focus on just three rocks, because there's probably 40, but focus on three. So I think there's this, you know, I think the challenge we all face is, there's so much going on in our world, so much going on in our categories, taking the time to just sit back and prioritise, think we're getting better. And I'd like to say you create a culture that embraces that. But I think going through the pandemic, all the challenges that we've all gone through over the past couple of years, has made it hard to kind of separate that time, just to think so you always got to keep pushing.
What's the best marketing resource you found recently,
Eric: What's the best marketing resource you found recently,
Mark: A little external resource. Were internal or both
Eric: To go external. So it's something other people can access
Mark: God, I think, I think external resource, I will, I will call out one specific resource. But I do think there's, there's just the different types of, I'll call it check groups or communities out there on different platforms, you can use discord for gaming, or you can use even just the sports community. I mean, sometimes just looking at for VCO, Romanos post in the comments and the conversations that happen around one little thing he says, or we're an athlete, or heck, even a politician. I think one of the richest spaces is actually going in and just looking at those conversations, because those are real conversations. Those are conversations in real time. And they live in native environments in some cases, and sometimes very tightly knit environments, like a discord gaming chat, or, you know, a Twitch chat or, or even a Twitter, you know, thread. But I think it's not just about is it trending? Or is whatever that original comment that's been put out there. It's actually the conversation about that. And I do think we don't spend enough time looking at those conversations, because that's the underlying reality of any topic. And I think it's just a broader area that you need to explore. I mean, and you need to explore it through different tools, you need to explore it through insights. But as a marketer, I you know, I think we used to be like, Oh, we got so many likes, or, you know, we trended on Twitter, trending on Twitter is only good as if the conversation about that tweet, is positive. Right. So So I do think it's about how do you understand how do you decompose it? How do you look into those underlying trends?
Eric: What's the biggest lesson you've learned in your career so far?
Mark: Ah, god. I don't know if we have enough time. There's so many I think the first one is, don't be afraid to make mistakes. Like, and I know it sounds, again, cliche, but we learn more from failure than we do from success. And, and, and there is fear of failing, that's been around forever. And I think it comes it's different per generation. But it's okay to make mistakes, as long as you learn from them. And as long as the type of mistake was not one that frankly, you should have no better not to have in the first place. I think the other thing is, you know, making time to look at the outside world more, you know, I do think we get so caught up in what happens in our day to day, both on our brands and our companies, that we need to take the time to spend more time with consumers spend more time with retailers spend more time with the industry and learn what they're talking about. The most interesting thing is, there's a lot more similarities and differences. But every once in a while you get that unique nugget, that unique example or that unique insight that fundamentally will change what you do back at home. So you just get out there and really experience your trade your craft because if that's important,
Eric: Last one, to sum it all up, which I know will be hard. What is one thing that people should do differently after listening to this episode?
Mark: Oh, again, another tough one. But I think I think you should just ask yourself, if you are relevant to your consumer, love that, you know, I It is that simple. Are you relevant? And what are you Doing to be relevant, because that will ultimately define whether you're a comic.
Eric: I'm going to be asking myself that about rival this weekend. All right, Mark, thank you so much. This has been a fantastic conversation. I've personally learned a lot. I'm sure that our listeners have to. If people want to connect with you find out more about what you're doing. I know you're active on LinkedIn, is that the best place to send folks or is there anywhere else?
Mark: Yeah, feel free to reach out. And I love to hear interesting things from interesting people and learn. I mean, ultimately, we're all students of our craft. Love it.
Eric: That's a perfect place to leave it. Mark. Thanks so much. See you soon.
Scratch is a production of rival. We are a marketing innovation consultancy that helps businesses develop strategies and capabilities to grow faster. If you want to learn more about us, check out we are rivals.com. If you want to connect with me, email me at Eric at the arrival.com or find me on LinkedIn. If you enjoyed today's show, please subscribe, share with anyone you think might enjoy it. And please do leave us a review. Thanks for listening and see you next week.
